The Two Faces of the Sabbath

[Samie]

I am not your "brother".

"Sister"? Sorry if I called you, "brother".

And Jesus did not say that one is supposed to emulate Him by going to a place of worship on Saturdays. That is why I said you are putting words in His mouth.

You are still putting words into my mouth. I did not say that Jesus said "one is supposed to emulate Me by going to a place of worship on Saturdays", did I? If I did, where? what post?

 

[TweetyBird]

You have not yet answered my question.

Abundantly have done so, several times now.

Again:

Is it wrong to emulate the custom of our Lord Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, to be in church (or synagogue for Jews) on Saturdays?

If you do not want to directly answer this question with a Yes or a No, plus a bit of explanation you want to add, just say so. I won't push you into a corner.

Once again a custom of Jesus as a Jewish man following His tradition according to the Mosaic Law, is not a commandment of His for me. He never stated that it was a priority. He taught that we should love one another as He loved us and was willing to lay down His life for us. Keeping a day of the week has nothing to do with living for Him - which we are do to 7 days a week, just as He did for us. The point of being a child of the King is to live a life of service FOR HIM, not go to church once a week to prove that we are His. The proof that we belong to Jesus is to be a servant in love, by His love, through His love, for His sake to and for others, regardless if they go to church or not. Does that answer you "directly"?

John 6
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[TweetyBird]

"Sister"? Sorry if I called you, "brother".

I am not your "sister" either. I do not know you at all except by what you post and that is not reason enough for me to be referred to by such familiarity.

You are still putting words into my mouth. I did not say that Jesus said "one is supposed to emulate Me by going to a place of worship on Saturdays", did I? If I did, where? what post?

Yes you did, several times.

 

[Samie]

Does that answer you "directly"?

No, sister, sorry. I want a Yes or No answer, plus a bit of any explanation you want to add.

Again:

Is it wrong to emulate the custom of our Lord Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, to be in church (or synagogue for Jews) on Saturdays?

 

[TweetyBird]

You said "Jesus agreed with them that He was not keeping the Sabbath". You highlighted some verses in red. Are those the verses where Jesus agreed He was not keeping the Sabbath? Tell me, if they are. Don't send me hunting for the verses you base your claim upon.

It's in red - which I bolded. Here they are again.

John 5
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

 

[TweetyBird]

No, sister, sorry. I want a Yes or No answer, plus a bit of any explanation you want to add.

Again:

Is it wrong to emulate the custom of our Lord Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, to be in church (or synagogue for Jews) on Saturdays?

I did answer you .... here is it again:

tweety: ["Once again a custom of Jesus as a Jewish man following His tradition according to the Mosaic Law, is not a commandment of His for me. He never stated that it was a priority."]

Then I added:

tweety: ["He taught that we should love one another as He loved us and was willing to lay down His life for us. Keeping a day of the week has nothing to do with living for Him - which we are do to 7 days a week, just as He did for us. The point of being a child of the King is to live a life of service FOR HIM, not go to church once a week to prove that we are His. The proof that we belong to Jesus is to be a servant in love, by His love, through His love, for His sake to and for others, regardless if they go to church or not. Does that answer you "directly"?]

Jesus NEVER SAID to follow His tradition/custom. NOT once, not ever. That is not why He came.

 

[Samie]

I am not your "sister" either. I do not know you at all except by what you post and that is not reason enough for me to be referred to by such familiarity.

OK then, you don't consider me your fellow member in the family of God where all of us belong as brethren in Christ.

Yes you did, several times.

Several times?

But why can't you show even one single post where I said that Jesus said "one is supposed to emulate Me by going to a place of worship on Saturdays"?

If you can't, then you'll be guilty of putting words into my mouth.

 

[TweetyBird]

OK then, you don't consider me your fellow member in the family of God where all of us belong as brethren in Christ.

I do not know you. Such familiarity comes with time and for a common purpose. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing on the forums.

Several times?

yes, almost everyone of your posts.

 

[Samie]

I did answer you .... here is it again:

tweety: ["Once again a custom of Jesus as a Jewish man following His tradition according to the Mosaic Law, is not a commandment of His for me. He never stated that it was a priority."]

I was NOT asking whether it is His commandment for you. That is not my question.

My question was:

Is it wrong to emulate the custom of our Lord Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, to be in church (or synagogue for Jews) on Saturdays?

Just say Yes, or No. And I'll be contented with the answer. Don't keep beating around the bush, please.

 

[Samie]

yes, almost everyone of your posts.

I have NOT posted in any of my posts that Jesus said "one is supposed to emulate Me by going to a place of worship on Saturdays".

You are putting words into my mouth since you cannot show from any of my post that specific statement you accuse me of.

 

[Samie]

It's in red - which I bolded. Here they are again.

John 5
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

You are back to your style of putting words into another's mouth. This time into Jesus' own mouth.

You said "Jesus agreed with them that He was not keeping the Sabbath" and that it is in John 5.

And then you showed Jesus statement saying:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

I don't see any in the red verses where He agreed with the Jews that He was not keeping the Sabbath. Can you explain how His statement that "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" is agreeing with the Jews that He was not keeping the Sabbath?

 

[Ktoyou]

Why is there any argument over this? Judaism and Christianity are two different religions.

 

[Samie]

You are back to your style of putting words into another's mouth. This time into Jesus' own mouth.

You said "Jesus agreed with them that He was not keeping the Sabbath" and that it is in John 5.

And then you showed Jesus statement saying:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

I don't see any in the red verses where He agreed with the Jews that He was not keeping the Sabbath. Can you explain how His statement that "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" is agreeing with the Jews that He was not keeping the Sabbath?

Me thinks the birdie has flown away knowing the fallacy of what she was taught that Jesus agreed with the Jews He was NOT keeping the Sabbath as per John 5:17.

I could also retire. It's past 3:37 AM January 1, 2017 here in the Philippines. See you later, folks.

 

[clefty]

Christian Gentiles could not go in the temple on the Sabbath, so that alone should show you that it does not matter, for Jesus made the two one. Jesus made the Jews and Gentiles one.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Yes He did make the two one...just as He made Israel (and others amongst them) one with Him and keep the Law He kept in the garden...to rest and be refreshed

He now made Gentiles one with Israel AGAIN...as in the OT there were non Israelites who were with them...and ONE LAW for both...

Here again it is the same...

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ ... So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord."

Now more than ever and through and by Him we are to do as Israel does being His people for which remains a Sabbath keeping...

We are new citizens and do what was and is done by our adoptive nation not bringing in our own man made traditions...

Now more than ever we wish to be with Him and do JUST AS He did...NOT to obtain grace but because through Him we already did...

 

[clefty]

Yes, I did know that but, you said that Jesus gathered in churches, not on synagogues. If that was not what you said, I apologize.

Stephen called it (isreal) a church in the wilderness...right before Pharisees killed him for reminding them that He was the head of it not them...

 

[clefty]

Every day is not the Sabbath Day - only the 7th day and the feast days that require Sabbaths. Jesus was referring to the physical Mosaic Law Sabbath, not Himself. We have perfect and continuing rest and peace in Him - what happens on the days of the week cannot change that.

we are to work six days is also part of the fourth commandment...

Jesus was not referring to anything positive about the Sabbath. He was saying that if flight was required and it happened on the Sabbath Day, they would not be aware of it and could not flee. Same with winter - if they were required to leave but could not because of the weather. It was an analogy - to be prepared. Apparently, the trib hit anyway and Jerusalem was destroyed and over a million Jews murdered, including those in surrounding areas.

LOL...not aware on Sabbaths something horrible was at the temple?

He didn't instruct prayers that they be saved just that of all the commandments Sabbath would be kept...

Of course the Jews were still keeping the Sabbath - it was part of their religion. The only reason the disciples went to the syn on Sat was to preach Christ.

and now the two Jew and gentile are one doing the same as He did even as in the garden...

preaching Christ and following His example in obeying the Law He gave back in the garden...a two for one deal...

Not one word about meeting on the first day to celebrate His resurrection supposedly to have been on Sunday...

Or every day Sabbaths...

Matt 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: 17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel also warned there would be those who like you wished to change times and laws...

 

[clefty]

That does not make sense. The disciples already knew they would die for His sake. Most of them were long dead before the destruction of Jerusalem - don't you think Jesus knew their future?

and yet the instruction was not that they be spared but that Sabbath be kept...

They WOULD reject His warning. Perhaps you are not familiar with all the times that God warned Israel what would happen if she transgressed the Law? And guess what, before the "ink was dry" from Moses writing down all the "613" commandments, God told Moses they would reject and rebel against the Law and be cursed. Do you think Jesus was surprised that the Jews would ignore Him yet again for the kazillionth time?

and yet the instruction was not that they be spared but that the sabbath be kept...it alone of all the commandments and into the future...

No they did not. There is absolutely no proof of that. In fact, both Peter and Paul ate with the Gentiles and then Peter tried to get the Gentiles to eat by the Law. So Paul corrected him. Then Paul said he only kep the Law when he was with the Jews and did not keep the Law when he was with the Gentile in order to win them both to Christ. None of the disciples were keeping the Law - and for sure not the sacrifices.

Paul kept Sabbath for worship as he copied Christ...he could have met Jews after like on Wednesday...he could could have met with Gentiles on Sunday...Peter kept Kosher as he described the vision as gentile were made clean...but not to eat okay? Even 3 of the four requirements at the Jerusalem council regarded Kosher dietary laws...

Paul DID NOT take a vow in Acts 21.

he cut his hair to be a skin head?

Paul actually said that His Jewishness and training in the Law and his role as Pharisee he considered dung that he might win Christ.

in his own defense he appealed to his Jewishness and faithfulness to his fathers custom and faith and to temple law...

No it wasn't. You are putting words in his mouth. In fact, the crowd was so upset with him that they tried to kill him and the Romans arrested him. According to the prophecy by Agabus. Read the rest of the chapter.

Yes it was...it most certainly was attempts to slander and false witness that James even had him prove he was faithful to the law...and even still more began to falsely accuse him...

As if Paul taught the house was divided into two laws...

 

[clefty]

The point is that He came to fulfill. Which He did.

and when you fulfill your obligation to the state in being a good driver the road laws are removed for the guy behind you?

When he fulfilled the prophecies? They were destroyed?

The Mosaic Law was the ministration of death. It is no more.

lol...so no more sin...it is used to point out sin...

And in Him its condemnation is annulled...it remains to point out sin and to condemn all in order they receive grace...

It will be used on judgement day...

Jesus only did what His Father told Him to do.

are you implying that now the Father counters Himself?

God did not tell Him to read Moses. What Jesus preached was not the Mosaic Law.

it's all He had there was no NT silly...and He repeatedly used the OT to affirm and validate Himself...

Read John 5,6,7,8 - lots of new information there - none of it is in the OT.

lots of it was love God and your neighbor as your self is exactly OT...none of what He taught abrogated the OT...calling Himself Lord of the Sabbath was just the beginning of His affirmation as before Abraham I AM...

John affirms this when in revelations he saw in paradise "Here are those that keep the commandments" not of the Son but of the Father...and yes the testimony of the Son...

Which was not LORD!LORD! but do My Father's will...

There was no refreshing on the Sabbath. No where does Scripture say that. The Sabbath was a yoke and a burden and is yet to this day for those who keep it.

Exodus 31:17 tells us that “on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed"

So He healed and was even risen from the sleep of death on the Sabbath a testimony of the true purpose of the Sabbath...

A burden to those who are not believers and grateful for ALL that was done from creation to beyond the cross...

Why do you bring up Sunday and ham? Are you that ill equipped to speak reasonably that you have to retort like a mocking 6th grader when you have nothing worthy to respond?

What would Jesus do? Is often asked...not eat Sunday Ham is quite clear...

Now go and fulfill your role as a citizen of Israel...follow Him JUST AS He lived and loved

 

[clefty]

Jesus worked on the Sabbath and allowed His disciples to work on the Sabbath. Is that what you mean by "emulating" Him?

Doing good works is not what Pharisees taught...although they would circumcise and pull ox out from ditches

Emulating Him means to live and Love just as He did...which fulfills (not destroys) the OT ...

Imagine if He was an employer...He would allow His workers a day off...seventh day to be sure...see?

His Love provides a day of rest and healing...rest which is healing...

 

[clefty]

The custom of Jesus, as Jewish man, is not what it means to emulate Him. There is not one verse in the NT that tells us we are to emulate Christ by going to a place of worship on Saturdays.

There is not one verse in the NT that says we must preach from a boat either...but if someone were to do so they would be emulating Him...