The Two Faces of the Sabbath

TweetyBird

New member
Lol...So when He instructs prayers be said that fleeing during the time of trouble not be on the Sabbath He was actually making it impossible for them to flee at all...since now Sabbath is every day...

Every day is not the Sabbath Day - only the 7th day and the feast days that require Sabbaths. Jesus was referring to the physical Mosaic Law Sabbath, not Himself. We have perfect and continuing rest and peace in Him - what happens on the days of the week cannot change that.

Jesus was not referring to anything positive about the Sabbath. He was saying that if flight was required and it happened on the Sabbath Day, they would not be aware of it and could not flee. Same with winter - if they were required to leave but could not because of the weather. It was an analogy - to be prepared. Apparently, the trib hit anyway and Jerusalem was destroyed and over a million Jews murdered, including those in surrounding areas.

Of course the Jews were still keeping the Sabbath - it was part of their religion. The only reason the disciples went to the syn on Sat was to preach Christ.

Matt 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: 17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
 

Samie

New member
Yes, I did know that but, you said that Jesus gathered in churches, not on synagogues. If that was not what you said, I apologize.
It's me who must apologize.

I am a Christian and I was talking to a Christian about Jesus Christ, the Head of all Christians, so I used "church" instead of "synagogue". Had I been discussing with you in those posts, I should have used "synagogue".
 

Samie

New member
Of course the Jews were still keeping the Sabbath - it was part of their religion. The only reason the disciples went to the syn on Sat was to preach Christ.
Is it wrong to emulate the custom of our Lord Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, to be in church (or synagogue for Jews) on Saturdays?
 

TweetyBird

New member
Or He was warning believing Jews of the temple destruction to come...and instructing them to pray the Sabbath would/could still be kept in this future time of trouble...

That does not make sense. The disciples already knew they would die for His sake. Most of them were long dead before the destruction of Jerusalem - don't you think Jesus knew their future?

Why would He warn rejecting Jews? Why would rejecting Jews believe His warning and obey His command to pray the Sabbath be kept?

They WOULD reject His warning. Perhaps you are not familiar with all the times that God warned Israel what would happen if she transgressed the Law? And guess what, before the "ink was dry" from Moses writing down all the "613" commandments, God told Moses they would reject and rebel against the Law and be cursed. Do you think Jesus was surprised that the Jews would ignore Him yet again for the kazillionth time?

Believing Jews still kept "temple laws" as Peter kept kosher and Paul the sabbath and even made a vow to prove he was faithful to it and the faith of his fathers being a Jews Jew and all...claimed this at his defense

No they did not. There is absolutely no proof of that. In fact, both Peter and Paul ate with the Gentiles and then Peter tried to get the Gentiles to eat by the Law. So Paul corrected him. Then Paul said he only kep the Law when he was with the Jews and did not keep the Law when he was with the Gentile in order to win them both to Christ. None of the disciples were keeping the Law - and for sure not the sacrifices.

Paul DID NOT take a vow in Acts 21.

Paul actually said that His Jewishness and training in the Law and his role as Pharisee he considered dung that he might win Christ.

It was false witnesses that accused him of preaching a change to the Law


No it wasn't. You are putting words in his mouth. In fact, the crowd was so upset with him that they tried to kill him and the Romans arrested him. According to the prophecy by Agabus. Read the rest of the chapter.
 

TweetyBird

New member
Think not that I have come to destroy...ok?

The point is that He came to fulfill. Which He did. The Mosaic Law was the ministration of death. It is no more.

Keeping His law is keeping His Father's law...as He did...their house is not divided


Jesus only did what His Father told Him to do. God did not tell Him to read Moses. What Jesus preached was not the Mosaic Law. Read John 5,6,7,8 - lots of new information there - none of it is in the OT.


To live and love JUST AS He did includes keeping a physical day Sabbath as He did...refreshing isn't it?

No Sunday Ham here...

There was no refreshing on the Sabbath. No where does Scripture say that. The Sabbath was a yoke and a burden and is yet to this day for those who keep it.

Why do you bring up Sunday and ham? Are you that ill equipped to speak reasonably that you have to retort like a mocking 6th grader when you have nothing worthy to respond?
 

TweetyBird

New member
Please consider:

1. Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ - our Shepherd - commands us - His sheep - to FOLLOW Him.
2. It is the custom of our Shepherd Who is the same yesterday and today and forever to be in church on Saturdays.
3. His sheep who follow Him are, of course, also in church on Saturdays.

Any objection?

Yes, I object. You are putting words in His mouth. Jesus never issued a commandment to go to church on the Sabbath/Saturday. He never even mentioned the Sabbath and being observant. The ones who were complaining that He was not keeping the Sabbath were the religious naysayers and legalistic pompous hypocrites. You had better be careful or you are going sound just like them. And for the record, Jesus agreed with them that He was not keeping the Sabbath. It's in John 5, just in case you missed it.
 

TweetyBird

New member
So why observe Sunday as your day of gathering together in church, if to observe it is worthless?

What is of greater worth is FOLLOWING our Shepherd, Savior and Lord, Who gave us an example worthy of emulation. What prevents people from emulating the example of the Lord?

Jesus worked on the Sabbath and allowed His disciples to work on the Sabbath. Is that what you mean by "emulating" Him?
 

God's Truth

New member
If they followed our Shepherd, they would have gathered in church on Saturdays, which is the custom of our Shepherd, Saviour and Lord Who is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

Christian Gentiles could not go in the temple on the Sabbath, so that alone should show you that it does not matter, for Jesus made the two one. Jesus made the Jews and Gentiles one.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
 

TweetyBird

New member
Covenants are not the Law.

The Mosaic Law was the old covenant.

There was a change to that old law. the change was not in the 10 but in the administration of the 10...its priesthood

Jesus did not teach the Mosaic 10, however. He reiterated some of those commandments, but made them brand new. New in that they were obeyed within a different perameter and for different reasons, and for a new people group - not for the Jews anymore.

Imagine it being one of the 613, you know, in the section that doesn't even apply to you but the Levites...

ALL 613 applied to EVERY SINGLE ISRAELITE. The Mosaic Law Covenant was for the NATION of Israel. Not separate, but as a WHOLE. It could only be kept AS A WHOLE by the WHOLE for the WHOLE. The people said: WE WILL KEEP/OBEY ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL the commandments.



All the other commandments are accepted but the Sabbath one...because man's tradition > Yah's 10 commandments

Not all of the other commandments are accepted. I am only required to keep the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses. One cannot separate out the 10 from the Law of Moses - it is ALLLLLL 613 commandments that MUST BE OBEYED as ONE PEOPLE GROUP in order for it to be kept, else, it was curse time.

Pray that the Sabbath be kept...and in the future time of trouble...

Jesus absolutely and categorically did NOT say to pray that the Sabbath be kept. You are putting words in His mouth.

Isaiah said all will worship Sabbath to Sabbath...of the survivors it looks like

It was a prophecy of Christ. Jesus said He fulfilled all the OT Law and prophets.
 

Samie

New member
Yes, I object. You are putting words in His mouth.
I did not. Looks like you are the one guilty of putting words into another's mouth, brother.
Jesus never issued a commandment to go to church on the Sabbath/Saturday.
Aren't you putting words into my mouth by insinuating that I said Jesus "issued a commandment to go to church on the Sabbath/Saturday". What I said, and you quoted it, was "Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ - our Shepherd - commands us - His sheep - to FOLLOW Him.

Now tell me, did He command His sheep to follow Him, or not?

If He did, then your objection is invalid, being based on an invalid premise that I put words into His mouth when I did not.
 

TweetyBird

New member
Is it wrong to emulate the custom of our Lord Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, to be in church (or synagogue for Jews) on Saturdays?

The custom of Jesus, as Jewish man, is not what it means to emulate Him. There is not one verse in the NT that tells us we are to emulate Christ by going to a place of worship on Saturdays.
 

God's Truth

New member
proved what? Missed that. Prove it again please because as I read it He says a future time of trouble is coming, pray the Sabbath is kept, not any other law btw just the Sabbath...
The scripture does not say to pray the Sabbath is kept. Show me that scripture.

during the period between temples no believers? Hardly...the prophecy is clear "I will right MY Laws in their hearts and minds" their physical bodily temples...
Jesus does that by the Holy Spirit.
yes He did...and was clear... It's not LORD! LORD! But those that do the will of the Father...which is to obey His Law...as the Son claimed He did and remained in His Father's love
Jesus gave us the New Law, which is the New Covenant, and is also called the New Testament.

Covenants are not the Law. "Think NOT that I have come to destroy the Law." Change destroys the original.

Covenants must be followed exactly. We have a blood Covenant in Christ and both sides keep to the rules exactly.

[the change was not in the 10 but in the administration of the 10...its priesthood
That is not what the scripture says. The scripture says since there was a change to the priesthood there is a change to the law.

Imagine it being one of the 613, you know, in the section that doesn't even apply to you but the Levites...

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
Yup...change OF the law NOT change IN it...

Relax this fuss is all about a day of rest...all this to reject 1 of the 10 written in hearts and minds of church in the wilderness...the house of Israel...

All are one in Christ.

There is no more special nationality except for the Christian nationality.

All the other commandments are accepted but the Sabbath one...because man's tradition > Yah's 10 commandments

Pray that the Sabbath be kept...and in the future time of trouble...
The scripture does not say that. Look more closely and you will see the truth.

Isaiah said all will worship Sabbath to Sabbath...of the survivors it looks like

Jesus Christ is the Sabbath.
 

Samie

New member
Yes, I object. You are putting words in His mouth. Jesus never issued a commandment to go to church on the Sabbath/Saturday. He never even mentioned the Sabbath and being observant. The ones who were complaining that He was not keeping the Sabbath were the religious naysayers and legalistic pompous hypocrites. You had better be careful or you are going sound just like them. And for the record, Jesus agreed with them that He was not keeping the Sabbath. It's in John 5, just in case you missed it.
Wow! Where in John 5 specifically? I'm afraid you'll end up like the scribes and pharisees. I'll wait even if it's past 2:00 AM now of 2017 from where I am.
 

TweetyBird

New member
I did not. Looks like you are the one guilty of putting words into another's mouth, brother.

I am not your "brother". And Jesus did not say that one is supposed to emulate Him by going to a place of worship on Saturdays. That is why I said you are putting words in His mouth.

Aren't you putting words into my mouth by insinuating that I said Jesus "issued a commandment to go to church on the Sabbath/Saturday". What I said, and you quoted it, was "Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ - our Shepherd - commands us - His sheep - to FOLLOW Him.

You said it before and you said it again ... LOL

Now tell me, did He command His sheep to follow Him, or not?

If He did, then your objection is invalid, being based on an invalid premise that I put words into His mouth when I did not.

Jesus did not say to go to a place of worship on Saturdays in order to emulate Him. If you think He did, you are putting words in His mouth. The commandments of Jesus were to love one another and to believe on Him. If you think He came to get people to follow the Mosaic Law, you are incorrect. Jesus taught a new Law.
 

TweetyBird

New member
Wow! Where in John 5 specifically? I'm afraid you'll end up like the scribes and pharisees. I'll wait even if it's past 2:00 AM now of 2017 from where I am.

John 5
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 

Samie

New member
The custom of Jesus, as Jewish man, is not what it means to emulate Him. There is not one verse in the NT that tells us we are to emulate Christ by going to a place of worship on Saturdays.
You have not yet answered my question.

Again:

Is it wrong to emulate the custom of our Lord Who is the same yesterday, today and forever, to be in church (or synagogue for Jews) on Saturdays?

If you do not want to directly answer this question with a Yes or a No, plus a bit of explanation you want to add, just say so. I won't push you into a corner.
 

Samie

New member
John 5
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
You said "Jesus agreed with them that He was not keeping the Sabbath". You highlighted some verses in red. Are those the verses where Jesus agreed He was not keeping the Sabbath? Tell me, if they are. Don't send me hunting for the verses you base your claim upon.
 

God's Truth

New member
That does not make sense. The disciples already knew they would die for His sake. Most of them were long dead before the destruction of Jerusalem - don't you think Jesus knew their future?



They WOULD reject His warning. Perhaps you are not familiar with all the times that God warned Israel what would happen if she transgressed the Law? And guess what, before the "ink was dry" from Moses writing down all the "613" commandments, God told Moses they would reject and rebel against the Law and be cursed. Do you think Jesus was surprised that the Jews would ignore Him yet again for the kazillionth time?



No they did not. There is absolutely no proof of that. In fact, both Peter and Paul ate with the Gentiles and then Peter tried to get the Gentiles to eat by the Law. So Paul corrected him. Then Paul said he only kep the Law when he was with the Jews and did not keep the Law when he was with the Gentile in order to win them both to Christ. None of the disciples were keeping the Law - and for sure not the sacrifices.

Paul DID NOT take a vow in Acts 21.

Paul actually said that His Jewishness and training in the Law and his role as Pharisee he considered dung that he might win Christ.




No it wasn't. You are putting words in his mouth. In fact, the crowd was so upset with him that they tried to kill him and the Romans arrested him. According to the prophecy by Agabus. Read the rest of the chapter.

Well, when Paul went to the temple, he did make sure he kept the old law temple rules.

However, you are right, all that is dung, but Jesus said while the earthly temple stood the rejecting Pharisees and teachers of the law reinforced those laws and for the disciples to follow it.
 
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