Jacob saw God and wrestled with Him

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

My understanding is that God has revealed His Name as Yahweh, and in the primary sense this refers to the One God, the Father.

What scripture do you use to arrive at this conclusion?

There are many examples, but perhaps the best known and also one that is quoted often in the NT is:
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
As you are familiar with languages you would know that the underlined is Yahweh, and he is speaking to David’s Lord. I could quote the NT where this is explained as Jesus being exalted to sit at the right hand of God the Father.

Psalm 8:1,5 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Here is Yahweh who made Jesus lower than the angels and then after his death and resurrection, crowned him with glory and honour. Thus in both of these contexts Yahweh is God the Father, while Jesus is separate, and is exalted by God the Father.

Paul more than likely was referring to the numerous OT passages referring to the Most Highs (plural) which reside in the Aramaic of the Book of Daniel.

I believe that Paul in Philippians 2:11 is referring to the exaltation of Jesus after his death and resurrection as per the examples above, Psalm 110:1, Psalm 8:5. Paul is also alluding to the Servant prophecies of Isaiah 40-53, partly because he quotes or alludes to Isaiah 45:23, but he has spoken of Jesus’ disposition of mind as a servant. Paul most probably has in mind the ultimate outcome of the 1st Servant Song Isaiah 42:1-7, but also the introduction to the 4th Servant Song, the familiar Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 52:13 (KJV): Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Trevor, you, and others are missing out dearly by not studying the original languages of scripture...

Yes.

Again...even a cursory glance at scripture in both the OT and the NT, we can easily see that Jesus is referred to as 'The Glory'.
Here is a knock-out example of The Trinity in action from the OT, in which we see that The Son is referred to as 'The Glory'...

I am not sure if you want me to respond to every Scripture that you have mentioned in the rest of this first of four Posts. My answer to most if not all is that Jesus after his death and resurrection has been glorified, and as such partakes of the glory of God. Many of the OT passages are prophetical of Jesus in his future (as at the time the prophecies were written) glory. Also God’s glory was revealed before Jesus came on the scene, for example in Exodus 33-34, the glory in the Most Holy Place of the Tabernacle and Temple, and the glory departing in Ezekiel 10-11.

If you already acknowledge that David is addressing Yahweh, only, then how is it that you then take the leap that he is also addressing the angels - when the angels are merely used in the discourse as a reference point?

Because Psalm 8:5 is a summary of Genesis 1:26, defining who the “us” is in Genesis 1:26, God the Father speaking to the angels and inviting them to cooperate in making man after “our” likeness, that is a little lower than God AND the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings again Apple7,

I am not sure if you want me to respond to every Scripture that you have mentioned in the rest of this first of four Posts. My answer to most if not all is that Jesus after his death and resurrection has been glorified, and as such partakes of the glory of God.

You are violating the rules by continuing to deviate from the Original Post. If you wish to establish your own Original Post on a subject of your choice, you can continue to argue from the Jehovah's Witness position that Jesus was "a god" rather than YHWH God the Son.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

You are violating the rules by continuing to deviate from the Original Post. If you wish to establish your own Original Post on a subject of your choice, you can continue to argue from the Jehovah's Witness position that Jesus was "a god" rather than YHWH God the Son.

I was responding in this instance to Apple7’s Post #77, where he quoted about 40 Scriptural references and made comments claiming that wherever we see “glory” and similar it is talking about Jesus in the OT, or a similar thought. I decided that this was too much to answer, so I simply summarised my response. The concept that Apple7 advanced is similar to your OP and numerous similar threads, claiming that whenever we have some form of visible Divine manifestation, then it must be the pre-incarnate Jesus.

I have on four or five occasions stated in your numerous similar threads that I am not a JW against your claims that I am a JW. Again I repeat, I could name 20 of their teachings that I strongly disagree with. Neither do I believe that Jesus was “a god” as the JWs claim. I believe that Jesus is The Son of God Luke 1:35, Romans 1:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

The concept that Apple7 advanced is similar to your OP and numerous similar threads, claiming that whenever we have some form of visible Divine manifestation, then it must be the pre-incarnate Jesus.

You have no original posts that I can find presenting your case that Jesus is not God the Son.
I post SCRIPTURE, not "opinions". You come along and say "that isn't true, I don't believe that".
If you have certain verifiable beliefs, then you should make an original post on the subject.
Otherwise, you are just presenting yourself as a juvenile with unverifiable unsubstantiated childish "beliefs".

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7,

There are many examples, but perhaps the best known and also one that is quoted often in the NT is:
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
As you are familiar with languages you would know that the underlined is Yahweh, and he is speaking to David’s Lord. I could quote the NT where this is explained as Jesus being exalted to sit at the right hand of God the Father.

Psalm 110 causes a rather large problem for Trinity deniers, as thus...

A declaration of Yahweh to my Lord: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool. Yahweh shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion to rule in the midst of Your enemies. Your people shall have willingness in the day of Your might; in the majesties of holiness; from the womb of the dawn, to You is the dew of Your youth. Yahweh has sworn and will not repent: You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at Your right hand shatters kings in the day of His anger. He shall judge among the nations; He shall fill with dead bodies; He shall shatter heads over much land. He shall drink out of the torrent on the way; therefore, He shall lift up the head. (Psalm 110.1 - 7)


compare..


But the Pharisees having been gathered, Jesus questioned them, saying, What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is He? They say to Him, David's. He said to them, Then how does David in Spirit call Him Lord, saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit off My right until I should put Your hostile ones as a footstool for Your feet?’ Then if David calls Him Lord, how is He his son? And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day to question Him anymore. (Matt 22.41 – 46)


Jesus’ reference to Psalm 110 further distinguishes God The Spirit from God The Father and God The Son.

Psalm 110 distinguishes between God The Father and God The Son, who was David’s Lord (Adonee). That ‘Adonee’ is divine is provided by the fact that The Son will be a priest forever. 'Adonee' is used as a proper name of God, only, in hundreds upon hundreds of OT passages.

Further, Psalm 110.5 informs the reader that God has a God.

 

[Apple7]

Psalm 8:1,5 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Here is Yahweh who made Jesus lower than the angels and then after his death and resurrection, crowned him with glory and honour. Thus in both of these contexts Yahweh is God the Father, while Jesus is separate, and is exalted by God the Father.

The Trinity already comprehends that God The Father is not God The Son.

Each is the One God; but each is not the other.

I believe that Paul in Philippians 2:11 is referring to the exaltation of Jesus after his death and resurrection as per the examples above, Psalm 110:1, Psalm 8:5. Paul is also alluding to the Servant prophecies of Isaiah 40-53, partly because he quotes or alludes to Isaiah 45:23, but he has spoken of Jesus’ disposition of mind as a servant. Paul most probably has in mind the ultimate outcome of the 1st Servant Song Isaiah 42:1-7, but also the introduction to the 4th Servant Song, the familiar Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 52:13 (KJV): Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Again...we are told that The Son is one of the Most Highs (plural) as recorded in the Aramaic of Daniel - thus, we would expect to see this surface in several scriptures.

Yes.

I am not sure if you want me to respond to every Scripture that you have mentioned in the rest of this first of four Posts. My answer to most if not all is that Jesus after his death and resurrection has been glorified, and as such partakes of the glory of God. Many of the OT passages are prophetical of Jesus in his future (as at the time the prophecies were written) glory. Also God’s glory was revealed before Jesus came on the scene, for example in Exodus 33-34, the glory in the Most Holy Place of the Tabernacle and Temple, and the glory departing in Ezekiel 10-11.

You can comment as you wish.

My point was to demonstrate to you that The Son is 'The Glory' in both the OT and in the NT.

Because Psalm 8:5 is a summary of Genesis 1:26, defining who the “us” is in Genesis 1:26, God the Father speaking to the angels and inviting them to cooperate in making man after “our” likeness, that is a little lower than God AND the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

Unfortunately, for your position, neither Gen 1.26 nor Psalm 8.5 even remotely makes the assertion that angels have any creative powers at all.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

I believe that Jesus is The Son of God Luke 1:35, Romans 1:1-4.

Your response to my citation of these two passages that teach that Jesus is the Son of God is:

You have no original posts that I can find presenting your case that Jesus is not God the Son.
I post SCRIPTURE, not "opinions". You come along and say "that isn't true, I don't believe that".
If you have certain verifiable beliefs, then you should make an original post on the subject.
Otherwise, you are just presenting yourself as a juvenile with unverifiable unsubstantiated childish "beliefs".

I have simply and clearly stated from Scripture that Jesus is The Son of God Luke 1:35, Romans 1:1-4, but you assert that Jesus is God the Son, not quoting Scripture, using a term "God the Son" that is not used or taught in the Scriptures.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings again beameup,


Your response to my citation of these two passages that teach that Jesus is the Son of God is:

I have simply and clearly stated from Scripture that Jesus is The Son of God Luke 1:35, Romans 1:1-4, but you assert that Jesus is God the Son, not quoting Scripture, using a term "God the Son" that is not used or taught in the Scriptures.

Kind regards
Trevor

The Jehovah's Witness' Watchtower Society has corrupted the meaning of "the Son of God" to mean something other than "God the Son". For example, JW's claim that Michael the Archangel became Jesus Christ, without any Biblical proof whatsoever. Your position is derived from Watchtower Society doctrine.
Angels are created beings and Colossians 1 clearly tells us that the Son of God created them. Angels therefore are not "god-like creators", as you proclaim, but are created beings, just like human beings.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Psalm 110 causes a rather large problem for Trinity deniers, as thus...
Further, Psalm 110.5 informs the reader that God has a God.

Psalm 110:1 is one of the greatest testimonies that Jesus is The Son of God. This passage is quoted in the NT time and again to prove that Jesus is The Son of God. Please consider these passages for yourself. I am not sure how you can accept that God has a God, as I certainly cannot digest such a concept.

Unfortunately, for your position, neither Gen 1.26 nor Psalm 8.5 even remotely makes the assertion that angels have any creative powers at all.

The angels have been given God’s power to accomplish God’s will. Have you considered that the word “Elohim” is possibly derived from “El” and this is sometimes translated “power”? Thus one suggestion for “Elohim” that seems reasonable, is “powerful ones”, and this could be the meaning in Psalm 8:5 and hence Genesis 1:26. “Elohim” can also be considered as intensive singular as it usually has a singular verb as in Genesis 1:1, but I believe even here it could be saying the One God working through a number of agents, the angels. I mention these concepts as you suggest that you understand Biblical languages.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

I have on four or five occasions stated in your numerous similar threads that I am not a JW against your claims that I am a JW. Again I repeat, I could name 20 of their teachings that I strongly disagree with. Neither do I believe that Jesus was “a god” as the JWs claim. I believe that Jesus is The Son of God Luke 1:35, Romans 1:1-4.

The Jehovah's Witness' Watchtower Society has corrupted the meaning of "the Son of God" to mean something other than "God the Son". For example, JW's claim that Michael the Archangel became Jesus Christ, without any Biblical proof whatsoever. Your position is derived from Watchtower Society doctrine.

You certainly seem to have a fixation concerning the JWs. My fellowship preceded the JWs, but not as well known. Maybe being in the Philippines the JWs are very active. My own fellowship has mainly been quietly growing in some of the rural areas of the Philippines, in some of the villages. When I tried to contact one of our meeting’s members recently, when she was visiting her family after 6 years, she could not receive a signal in her location. You could be in a city with good internet access. What island are you on? Some of my mates have active contact with the Philippines and have visited on numerous occasions.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings again beameup,



You certainly seem to have a fixation concerning the JWs. My fellowship preceded the JWs, but not as well known. Maybe being in the Philippines the JWs are very active. My own fellowship has mainly been quietly growing in some of the rural areas of the Philippines, in some of the villages.

I am always interested in other denominations in the Philippines. The major one is Iglesia Ni Cristo, but I'm sure there are many I don't know about. Many folks looking for an alternative to the Catholic Church. The Mormons have a significant presence in the Philippines. BTW, the JW's have been around for about 150 years.

Jacob: "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." - Genesis 32:30

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7,

Psalm 110:1 is one of the greatest testimonies that Jesus is The Son of God. This passage is quoted in the NT time and again to prove that Jesus is The Son of God. Please consider these passages for yourself.

I consider them in the original language, and it tells me that Jesus is God.

I am not sure how you can accept that God has a God, as I certainly cannot digest such a concept.

For the same reason that I also accept that Jesus created the Universe.

The angels have been given God’s power to accomplish God’s will. Have you considered that the word “Elohim” is possibly derived from “El” and this is sometimes translated “power”? Thus one suggestion for “Elohim” that seems reasonable, is “powerful ones”, and this could be the meaning in Psalm 8:5 and hence Genesis 1:26. “Elohim” can also be considered as intensive singular as it usually has a singular verb as in Genesis 1:1, but I believe even here it could be saying the One God working through a number of agents, the angels. I mention these concepts as you suggest that you understand Biblical languages.

Kind regards
Trevor

That angels have creative power is typically a Jewish invention....and an attempt to mask the plural Creator.

 

[ThreeAngels]

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him and he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:24-30

The God who Jacob wrestled with was Jesus.

 

[Apple7]

Thus one suggestion for “Elohim” that seems reasonable, is “powerful ones”, and this could be the meaning in Psalm 8:5 and hence Genesis 1:26.
Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor,

Passages like this one should suffice in eradicating the Jewish idea that angels took part in creation...

Isa 54.5

For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.


See how this verse clarifies who the 'creators' are....?

There is only one Creator, The Triune Yahweh.

Amen.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7 and Greetings ThreeAngels,

I consider them in the original language, and it tells me that Jesus is God.

Despite your claim to language skills, you conclusion seems to be contrary to the Scriptural teaching. The NT exposition of Psalm 110:1 clearly depicts God as separate from Jesus, and even Psalm 110:1 is clear that it is Yahweh, God the Father that exalts David’s son and Lord to the right hand of God.
Acts 2:32-36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Colossians 3:1 (KJV): If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

The Good who Jacob wrestled with was Jesus.

Hosea 12:3-4 tells us that Jacob wrestled with an angel.

Passages like this one should suffice in eradicating the Jewish idea that angels took part in creation...
Isa 54.5 For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.
See how this verse clarifies who the 'creators' are....? There is only one Creator, The Triune Yahweh.

I was interested to read the footnote in JA Motyer’s commentary on Isaiah, page 446. He was a lecturer on the Hebrew text at various colleges including Trinity College, Bristol. On the word “Maker” he says:
“the word Maker looks like a plural form. This, however, is due to the occasional reappearance, as here, of the original yodh of the stem.”
He thus appears to be a Trinitarian, but he does not support your view. He has further comments on Husband, but again he does not support your view.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus , whom ye have crucified,
both YHWH and MESSIAH . - Acts 2:36

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus , whom ye have crucified,
both YHWH and MESSIAH . - Acts 2:36

It is true that the Name Yahweh in some contexts speaks of Jesus when he represents God, the Father. In Psalm 110:1 Yahweh is God the Father, while Adon is David’s Lord, revealed in the NT as Jesus. In the context of Acts 2:36 Peter is expounding Psalm 110:1, and thus God the Father, Yahweh has made Jesus Lord, Adon, that is Ruler, Master, not YHWH as you claim.

Acts 2:32-36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

When we say “our Lord Jesus Christ”, the Adon portion is Lord, while the Yahweh Name is incorporated in Jesus in a shortened form Yah, and thus Jesus’ name is Yah’s salvation or the salvation of Yah.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Despite your claim to language skills, you conclusion seems to be contrary to the Scriptural teaching. The NT exposition of Psalm 110:1 clearly depicts God as separate from Jesus, and even Psalm 110:1 is clear that it is Yahweh, God the Father that exalts David’s son and Lord to the right hand of God.




Acts 2:32-36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Colossians 3:1 (KJV): If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Of course each is not the other.

However, each is the One God.

Adonay is a proper name of God, as can be verified in hundreds of OT passages.

Thus, when Adonay is used of The Son, then we have rock-solid confirmation that The Son is God.

Simple enough, Trevor.....don't make it hard on yourself...

Hosea 12:3-4 tells us that Jacob wrestled with an angel.

1 Kings 18.31 & 2 Kings 17.34 tell us that Jacob wrestled with Yahweh.

I was interested to read the footnote in JA Motyer’s commentary on Isaiah, page 446. He was a lecturer on the Hebrew text at various colleges including Trinity College, Bristol. On the word “Maker” he says:
“the word Maker looks like a plural form. This, however, is due to the occasional reappearance, as here, of the original yodh of the stem.”
He thus appears to be a Trinitarian, but he does not support your view. He has further comments on Husband, but again he does not support your view.

Kind regards
Trevor

Motyer's second half of the footnote confirms the plural.

He mentions 'Plural of Majesty', however, PoM never existed anywhere in the Ancient Near East (ANE), including Biblical Hebrew.

Thus....we are back to scripture portraying a plural Creator....no mention of angels either, as your reference confirms...

 

[Apple7]

When we say “our Lord Jesus Christ”, the Adon portion is Lord, while the Yahweh Name is incorporated in Jesus in a shortened form Yah, and thus Jesus’ name is Yah’s salvation or the salvation of Yah.

Kind regards
Trevor

And after these things, I heard a great voice of a large multitude in Heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the honor and the power of the Lord our God! For true and righteous are His judgments, because He judged the great harlot who defiled the earth with her fornication. And He avenged the blood of His slaves out of her hand. And a second time they said, Hallelujah! Also her smoke goes up to the ages of the ages. And the twenty four elders, and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God sitting on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah! And a voice came out from the throne, saying, Praise our God, all His slaves, and the ones fearing Him, the small and the great. And I heard as a sound of a numerous crowd, and as a sound of many waters, and as a sound of strong thunders, saying, Hallelujah! Because the Lord God Almighty reigned. (Rev 19.1 – 6)


A close reading of the text informs the reader that the term ‘Hallelujah’ (i.e. Praise Yahweh) is proclaimed by the large multitude (i.e. the Righteous in Heaven), not once (Rev 19.1), not twice (Rev 19.3), but three separate times (Rev 19.6).

This is in keeping with the Three Person; One Being Triune God formula already established in scripture.

Now that the Father, Son and Spirit have been established and are worshiped by The Righteous; a separate confirmation of this singular truth is proclaimed by the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures (Rev 19.4).

Yet another Biblical proof that the One God is Triune and His Righteous worship Him as Triune.

Further, Rev 19 is about The Son, of which, can only mean that His name is Yahweh, as the Hallelujah is towards Him.

The doxology contained in Rev 19.1 – 2 pertains to Jesus, and, as we already know, these epithets have already been applied to Jesus numerous times in scripture.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Adonay is a proper name of God, as can be verified in hundreds of OT passages.
Thus, when Adonay is used of The Son, then we have rock-solid confirmation that The Son is God.

Pardon my lack of preciseness as to the spelling, so I will adopt your “Adonay”. I view this as a title or function meaning “Lord or Ruler”. As God the Father is the Creator and Master of the Universe, He is thus Adonay, Lord and Ruler of the Universe. The following uses this title in the context of the creation:
Psalm 8:1-3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordaineda strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Now Jesus alludes to this, summarising and quoting the above:
Matthew 11: 25-27 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The process revealed above is that Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth. He has now created Jesus, the Son of God through Mary, and given and appointed Jesus to be Ruler or Lord, the inheritor of the throne of David.

Simple enough, Trevor.....don't make it hard on yourself...

Yes, when the true Scriptural sequence and teaching is considered.

Motyer's second half of the footnote confirms the plural.
He mentions 'Plural of Majesty', however, PoM never existed anywhere in the Ancient Near East (ANE), including Biblical Hebrew.
Thus....we are back to scripture portraying a plural Creator....no mention of angels either, as your reference confirms...

Firstly, he disagrees with your position and this shows that arguing a fine line from the Hebrew may or may not be decisive. One reason why I did not quote his explanation of this second part is that I do not agree with Plural of Majesty. Unlike the royal "we" of earlier English kings, God uses the emphatic "I, I", not "We, We", and a Trinitarian would prefer the latter. I am very satisfied with my explanation of Elohim being the One God working through many agents, in this case the angels, and until you give a reasonable answer to Psalm 8:5 I will remain convinced that this is true. Some of my brethren have suggested that an “im” ending is a Hebrew way of expressing an intensive singular. I have seen a list some years ago but it would take a long time to find this, or research this. You may be familiar with this as you have examined the Hebrew language.

Kind regards
Trevor