Jacob saw God and wrestled with Him

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

The Angel of YHWH is a title of the SON of GOD throughout the O.T.
The "messengers" identify themselves by name... like Michael and Gabriel.

I appreciate your response, but we have a different perspective. I believe that it is most probably Michael on such occasions as at the burning bush etc. Jesus on the other hand was made a little lower than the angels and then exalted above the angels. Jesus, the Son of Man, the Son of God only appears in prophecy in the OT, not in person.

Yep, the SON can be found throughout O.T., sometimes referred to as The Son of Man.

Yes, Jesus is the Son of Man, but again only in prophecy in the OT. He is the Son of Man of Psalm 8, and this is because he is the literal son of Adam, and God’s purpose in creation will be fulfilled in him as Psalm 8 depicts.

Lots of threads covering this topic are on this forum.

I am only new to this forum and will take one thread at a time as they appear. If this thread is some indication of this subject in those other threads then I would not be really interested.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. - Daniel 7:13-14

I understand that this depicts Jesus, the Son of Man, going to heaven after his death and resurrection. Refer Acts 1:9-11.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings again beameup,
I appreciate your response, but we have a different perspective. I believe that it is most probably Michael on such occasions as at the burning bush etc. Jesus on the other hand was made a little lower than the angels and then exalted above the angels. Jesus, the Son of Man, the Son of God only appears in prophecy in the OT, not in person.
Yes, Jesus is the Son of Man, but again only in prophecy in the OT. He is the Son of Man of Psalm 8, and this is because he is the literal son of Adam, and God’s purpose in creation will be fulfilled in him as Psalm 8 depicts.

Taken as a whole, the Old Testament does show angels in human-form appearing to man, but they NEVER accept WORSHIP. On the other hand, The Angel of the LORD or The Captain of the LORD's host (ie: angels) does accept WORSHIP.

For one example, Joshua before the battle of Jerico:
And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did WORSHIP, and said unto him, What saith MY LORD unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou stand is HOLY ground. And Joshua did so. - Joshua 5:13-15

Note that this same phrase is used when Moses meets God on Mt. Sinai.
This is why I respectfully mentioned to you to consider the entirety of the Old Testament.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

Taken as a whole, the Old Testament does show angels in human-form appearing to man, but they NEVER accept WORSHIP. On the other hand, The Angel of the LORD or The Captain of the LORD's host (ie: angels) does accept WORSHIP.
For one example, Joshua before the battle of Jerico:
And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did WORSHIP, and said unto him, What saith MY LORD unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou stand is HOLY ground. And Joshua did so. - Joshua 5:13-15
Note that this same phrase is used when Moses meets God on Mt. Sinai.

There could well be a distinction between an Archangel and angels, but this concept and language is there to prepare the way for understanding the position and role of Jesus in the NT. The concept of worship is not a worship of an independent being, but worship directed to God in and through His representative.

This is why I respectfully mentioned to you to consider the entirety of the Old Testament.

Yes, not only all of the OT, but also the NT. When we bow or do obeisance to Jesus in the future it will not be worship directed to him alone, as an independent being, but worship to God the Father, in and through Jesus.
Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings again beameup,
There could well be a distinction between an Archangel and angels, but this concept and language is there to prepare the way for understanding the position and role of Jesus in the NT. The concept of worship is not a worship of an independent being, but worship directed to God in and through His representative.
When we bow or do obeisance to Jesus in the future it will not be worship directed to him alone, as an independent being, but worship to God the Father, in and through Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor

I can see the influence of the Watchtower Society.
There is no escape from the Jehovah's Witnesses.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:10-11

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. - Isaiah 45:23

The entire O.T. is a gradual revelation of the Son of God, culminating in the revelation of Yeshua of Nazareth. He is the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega.
The Father has directed us to WORSHIP the God-Man Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him - Psalm 2:12

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

I can see the influence of the Watchtower Society.
There is no escape from the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am certainly not a JW, have another guess. JWs view Proverbs 8 as the pre-incarnate Jesus, and they use the word Jehovah, not Yahweh. I could list 20 teachings where I disagree with JWs.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:10-11

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. - Isaiah 45:23

Yes Philippians 2 is quoting Isaiah 45:23 and this proves that Jesus is not to be worshipped as an independent being. God the Father only is to be worshipped through the Lord Jesus Christ, otherwise Philippians 2:11 would say “to the glory of God the Son”.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Elia]

The Angel of YHWH is a title of the SON of GOD throughout the O.T.

Bs"d

And that of course, is made up by yourself.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

And that of course, is made up by yourself.

I'm certain that the WORSHIP of the Captain of YHWH's Host by Joshua is an "inconvenient truth" for an eisegesist like yourself.

 

[Elia]

I'm certain that the WORSHIP of the Captain of YHWH's Host by Joshua is an "inconvenient truth" for an eisegesist like yourself.

Bs"d

I don't care what you are certain about, I care about what God says in the Tanach.

And you forgot to answer this one:

Please give me your BIBLICAL proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

I'm very curious.

When you're done I'll happily give you the Biblical proof from the Tanach that it speaks about Israel.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[beameup]

Bs"d
I don't care what you are certain about, I care about what God says in the Tanach.

So this is another example of your failure to understand your own Tanakh? Perhaps the book of Joshua is missing from your copy? Maybe someone (a "Christian" no doubt) cut chapter 5 out of your copy of Joshua?

And you forgot to answer this one:

Please give me your BIBLICAL proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

I'm very curious.

We've already been assured by you that:
1) you are being punished by God
2) your soul is made an offering for sin
3) your soul is in travail
4) you have "justified many"
5) you are "baring their iniquities"?
6) your soul is poured out unto death
7) you bare the sins of many

 

[Ben Masada]

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him and he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:24-30

Jacob did not see God face-to-face but in a dream. (Numbers 12:6)Every thing in possible in a dream, even for a cow to fly.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yet another fairy-tale brought to you by the Talmud:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Deaf and Blind and Asleep: the spiritual condition of most Jews to this very day.

Beameup, I think that you not only lack almost all knowledge of the Tanach but also have no concern for it. Do you at least read the quotes used here by other posters?

 

[beameup]

Jacob did not see God face-to-face but in a dream. (Numbers 12:6)Every thing in possible in a dream, even for a cow to fly.

:mock:
Yes, and Joshua (in full battle gear) fell down and worshipped the Captain of the LORD's Host and was told to "take off his shoes because he was on Holy ground". It's all just a dream.

For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes:

 

[Apple7]

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him and he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:24-30

We can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:

• The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
• Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
• Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
• Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
• Man (Gen 32.24)





Gen 32.24 - 30

And Jacob was left alone. And a Man wrestled with him until the ascending of the dawn. And He saw that He had not prevailed against him. And He touched on his hip socket, and Jacob's hip socket was unhinged as he wrestled with Him. And He said, Send Me away, for the dawn has ascended. And he said, I will not let You go unless You bless me. And He said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed. And Jacob asked and said, Please reveal Your name. And He said, Why this that you ask about My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God, because I saw God face to face, and my life is delivered.


• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, said that Jacob had wrestled with God (Gen 32.28)
• Jacob believed that the man was telling the truth (Gen 32.30)
• Jacob said that the man he wrestled, was God – that he had seen God face to face (Gen 32.30)
• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Gen 32.28)…compare to (1Ki 18.31; 2 Ki 17.34) which both state that Yahweh changed Jacob’s name
• Jacob wrestled with The Elohim-man
• Jacob wrestled with The Yahweh-man
• Jacob wrestled with The God-man
• Jacob wrestled with The second person of the Trinity, The Son

 

[Ben Masada]

:mock:
Yes, and Joshua (in full battle gear) fell down and worshipped the Captain of the LORD's Host and was told to "take off his shoes because he was on Holy ground". It's all just a dream.

Yes, but in a dream. Joshua was a prophet and, the Lord said in Numbers 12:6 that, "If there is a prophet among you, I'll make myself known to him in a vision; I'll speak to him in a dream." Now, you don't have to bother looking for the quote. You want to impose your literal interpretation where the text is clearly metaphorical.

 

[Ben Masada]

We can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:

Jacob was a Jew and Jews do not believe in the Trinity. You are trying to impose your Christian beliefs into the Tanach and it is not helping here.

The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31) Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34) Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)Man (Gen 32.24)

Gen 32.24-30 And Jacob was left alone.And a Man wrestled with him until the ascending of the dawn.And He saw that He had not prevailed against him.

You see! The whole night in a dream in his sleep. (Numbers 12:6)

And He touched on his hip socket, and Jacob's hip socket was unhinged as he wrestled with Him. And He said, Send Me away, for the dawn has ascended. And he said, I will not let You go unless You bless me. And He said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. And He said,Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed. And Jacob asked and said, Please reveal Your name. And He said, Why this that you ask about My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God, because I saw God face to face, and my life is delivered.

Yes, no doubt, Jacob wrestled with God in a dream. Perfectly natural as Numbers 12:6 is concerned. And with regards to his unhinged rip socket in the morning, I see no other reference but to the long time on his knees in prayer. That's what he had gone to that place in the first place for.

The man with whom Jacob wrestled, said that Jacob had wrestled with God (Gen 32.28) Jacob believed that the man was telling the truth (Gen 32.30)Jacob said that the man he wrestled, was God – that he had seen God face to face (Gen 32.30)The man with whom Jacob wrestled, changed Jacob’s name to Israel.(Gen 32.28)…compare to (1Ki 18.31; 2 Ki 17.34) which both state that Yahweh changed Jacob’s name Jacob wrestled with The Elohim-man Jacob wrestled with The Yahweh-man Jacob wrestled with The God-man Jacob wrestled with The second person of the Trinity, The Son

I do not deny any thing of the above to have happened but of how it happened as all happened in a dream or vision. Nothing literal. (Numbers 12:6) BTW, literally, no one can see the face of God and still live. (Exodus 33:20)

 

[beameup]

Yes, but in a dream. Joshua was a prophet and, the Lord said in Numbers 12:6 that, "If there is a prophet among you, I'll make myself known to him in a vision; I'll speak to him in a dream." Now, you don't have to bother looking for the quote. You want to impose your literal interpretation where the text is clearly metaphorical.

So, the entire military and the Levites are all gathered for battle against Jerico, and
:mock: Joshua falls asleep and has a "dream". :rotfl: That's a real knee-slapper.

"Myths", "metaphors" and "old-wives-tales" brought to you by the Talmud.

 

[PureX]

We all "wrestle with" God once we finally begin to perceive the overwhelming magnitude and mystery of it. Because God is beyond our understanding, and beyond our control. And it's human nature to want to control things by understanding and manipulating them. So we struggle with this impenetrable Divine Mystery until we are finally willing to be humbled by it. And accept it's majesty.

 

[Apple7]

Jacob was a Jew and Jews do not believe in the Trinity. You are trying to impose your Christian beliefs into the Tanach and it is not helping here.

Of course Jews don't believe in a Triune Creator God.....your people were too busy worshipping demons and idols, according to your Tanak.

You see! The whole night in a dream in his sleep. (Numbers 12:6)



Yes, no doubt, Jacob wrestled with God in a dream. Perfectly natural as Numbers 12:6 is concerned. And with regards to his unhinged rip socket in the morning, I see no other reference but to the long time on his knees in prayer. That's what he had gone to that place in the first place for.



I do not deny any thing of the above to have happened but of how it happened as all happened in a dream or vision. Nothing literal. (Numbers 12:6) BTW, literally, no one can see the face of God and still live. (Exodus 33:20)

No lexical resource defines the Hebrew word 'mar'ah' as a 'dream'.

What a pathetic Jew you must be to keep recycling this pithy excuse of an argument, instead of directly addressing the tough passages head-on...

 

[beameup]

Jacob was a Jew and Jews do not believe in the Trinity.

The Jews before the 1st century AD clearly believed in TWO POWERS: "The Ancient of Days" and the "Son of Man"-"Son of God". Daniel 7 was a clear and concise revelation of this FACT.
The truth is is that they simply "didn't like the way Yeshua looked", so they "threw him overboard". Jews have been lied to about this for 2,000 years.
Now, as to the "trinity" as you call it, it is much harder to find that revealed in the Tanakh. The "Son" is the focus of the Tanakh and makes numerous "manlike" appearances.
There is and always was only ONE SAVIOR for Israel. If you see yourself as "SINLESS" then you disqualify yourself as needing a SAVIOR.

 

[Elia]

Of course Jews don't believe in a Triune Creator God.....your people were too busy worshipping demons and idols, according to your Tanak.

Bs"d

We only worship the one and only true God, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Y-H-W-H who is one.

Besides Him we don't have any God, and we don't worship a whole divine family.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1+2