Jacob saw God and wrestled with Him

[beameup]

The reason I asked you is because I find no such scriptures.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which speak of me. - John 5:39

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. - John 5:46

 

[CherubRam]

Who said? Since the Son created everything that was made, what beginning are you referring to?

There is only one creator and that is Yahwah. The scripture that say Christ created is another Catholic corruption.

 

[CherubRam]

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which speak of me. - John 5:39

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. - John 5:46

I have many thousands of hours in studying the bible, and I am telling you, there is no Old Testament scriptures that say Christ was worshiped by the Jews. The New Testament scriptures that say Christ was worshiped is another Catholic corruption. Christ and the disciples would have been killed immediately for such an act against the law.

 

[beameup]

I have many thousands of hours in studying the bible, and I am telling you, there is no Old Testament scriptures that say Christ was worshiped by the Jews. The New Testament scriptures that say Christ was worshiped is another Catholic corruption. Christ and the disciples would have been killed immediately for such an act against the law.

Maybe you are mistaking the Koran for the "Bible".
It's pretty obvious that someone gave you the wrong book.

In case you get your hands on a "real" Bible, here are a couple of references:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which speak of me. - John 5:39

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. - John 5:46

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. - John 20:28

 

[Ben Masada]

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him and he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:24-30

Jacob was struggling with a terrible depression because of the approach of his brother Esau with 400 men as angry then as he was at the time Jacob fled the Land of Canaan. And Jacob had all his family: Wives, children and servants. He was desperate and so, he slumbered and had a dream in which he would physically fight with the Lord. We can imagine that he would get back to his prayers as often as he could and then back to the slumber. Now, how do I know that it was all in a dream? Because according to Numbers 12:6, the Lord said, "If there is a prophet among you, I'll make Myself known to him in a vision and, in a dream I'll speak to him." At the end of that night, Jacob was so excited that he named the place "Peniel" because he felt the event so lively that he would declare to have seen God face to face. Literally that would be impossible because, God has no face; hence, no one could see God face to face. Even Moses, the greatest of all prophets could not see God face to face and live. (Exodus 33:20)

 

[CherubRam]

Maybe you are mistaking the Koran for the "Bible".
It's pretty obvious that someone gave you the wrong book.

In case you get your hands on a "real" Bible, here are a couple of references:


And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. - John 20:28

English must be your second language. Good Bye.

 

[jamie]

The scripture that say Christ created is another Catholic corruption.

Ok, so what did the scripture originally say?

 

[Ben Masada]

I would be interested in seeing an Old Testament verse that says the Jews worshiped the Son of God.

The verse you are interested to see in the Tanach stating that the Jews worshiped the Son of God is the same as one stating that the Jews worshiped themselves. Why? Because the verse you want is in Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son; let My Son god that he may serve Me."

 

[beameup]

Yet another fairy-tale brought to you by the Talmud:
:mock:

Jacob was struggling with a terrible depression because of the approach of his brother Esau with 400 men as angry then as he was at the time Jacob fled the Land of Canaan. And Jacob had all his family: Wives, children and servants. He was desperate and so, he slumbered and had a dream in which he would physically fight with the Lord. We can imagine that he would get back to his prayers as often as he could and then back to the slumber. Now, how do I know that it was all in a dream? Because according to Numbers 12:6, the Lord said, "If there is a prophet among you, I'll make Myself known to him in a vision and, in a dream I'll speak to him." At the end of that night, Jacob was so excited that he named the place "Peniel" because he felt the event so lively that he would declare to have seen God face to face. Literally that would be impossible because, God has no face; hence, no one could see God face to face. Even Moses, the greatest of all prophets could not see God face to face and live. (Exodus 33:20)

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes - Isaiah 29:10a
Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. - Deut 29:4
Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: - Jer 5:21
Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house. - Ezek 12:2

Deaf and Blind and Asleep: the spiritual condition of most Jews to this very day

 

[keypurr]

Who said? Since the Son created everything that was made, what beginning are you referring to?

Because the Son is the IMAGE of God. Consider that God was alone before he created his exact image.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings beameup,

Jacob saw God and wrestled with Him
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. .... And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:24-30

The following relates some aspects of Jacob’s life and the prophet here tells us that Jacob wrestled with an angel, not God Himself.
Hosea 11:2-6 (KJV): 2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. 3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: 4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; 5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. 6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.
Notice the Hebrew poetical parallelism, "power with God" and "power over the angel".

The word normally translated God in the OT (Hebrew “elohim”) often denotes God’s angels representing and working on God’s behalf. The following is an example where “elohim” is translated “angels” in the KJV, but in some modern translations it is rendered “God”.
Psalm 8:4-5 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew “elohim”), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

There are other places where Judges are described as or called "Elohim", and again this is because they represent God and speak on his behalf. This is fairly unique to the OT, but it also has some mention and application in the NT. It is necessary to understand this feature to correctly understand some of these OT Scriptures.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings beameup,
The following relates some aspects of Jacob’s life and the prophet here tells us that Jacob wrestled with an angel, not God.

Kind regards
Trevor

He saw God face-to-face. Read and understand the words of the ruach 'Elohim throughout the O.T. where references are made to this supernatural divine person. I don't know how "more intimate" you could be with God than to wrestle with Him.

"the angel of YHWH" is a very common title associated with the 2nd Power in Heaven (ie: "Son").
Jews of B.C. clearly understood. Jews post-70 AD have covered-up all their own past theology.

There are many posts here that cover all the appearances of "the Arm of YHWH" (divinity in the form of a MAN) throughout the entire Old Testament (Tanakh).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

I appreciate your response, but I believe in the One God, represented or revealed by the Name Yahweh (or similar spelling or pronunciation) in the OT, and God the Father in the NT. I also believe that the many Divine appearances in the OT were by means of God’s angels. We have been given the names of some of these angels, for example Michael and Gabriel. I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God Matthew 1:21-22, Luke 1:35, John 1:14, Romans 1:1-4 and is now seated at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings again beameup,

I appreciate your response, but I believe in the One God, represented or revealed by the Name Yahweh (or similar spelling or pronunciation) in the OT, and God the Father in the NT. I also believe that the many Divine appearances in the OT were by means of God’s angels. We have been given the names of some of these angels, for example Michael and Gabriel. I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God Matthew 1:21-22, Luke 1:35, John 1:14, Romans 1:1-4 and is now seated at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks for the reply.
The entirety of the Old Testament has to be taken into consideration.
I could lead you through each example, but it would be an exercise in futility.
At any rate, it is you that will have to be "EVALUATED" in the end, as you have access to the scriptures.

Those of the "Jewish" persuasion have "pre-conceived" beliefs, and regardless of the Biblical "evidence" refuse (or simply cannot) see and perceive from their own Scriptures.
But the evidence is definitely there attesting to the "complexity" of the Godhead, otherwise, there never would have been even ONE "believer" in the 1st century.

And what of the "ruach haqodesh"?

 

[Elia]

In the beginning Christ was with God and Christ was God.

Bs"d

There is only one God, and that is Y-H-W-H, and besides Him there is no God:


“This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no god.”
Isaiah 44:6

 

[Elia]

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, ...

Bs"d

You really think that when God fights with Jacob, that God cannot win??

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Elia]

Bs"d

The word "elohiem" is in the Tanach used for leaders, (Mozes), judges, mighty men, and here in Genesis 32 for an angel of God.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

You really think that when God fights with Jacob, that God cannot win??

You know nothing :dunce: ... except what the rabbis tell you.

Yea, he had power over The Angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there He spake with us; even YHWH God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. - Hosea 12:4-5

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

Yea, he had power over The Angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there He spake with us; even YHWH God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. - Hosea 12:4-5

I am glad that you now agree that Jacob wrestled with the angel, not God Himself. From the above it is evident that Yahweh not only acted through the angel, but also spoke by means of the angel.

Another occasion where a similar parallelism is used concerning God and the angel is the following:
Genesis 48:15-16 (KJV): 15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, 16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings again beameup,
I am glad that you now agree that Jacob wrestled with the angel, not God Himself. From the above it is evident that Yahweh not only acted through the angel, but also spoke by means of the angel.

Another occasion where a similar parallelism is used concerning God and the angel is the following:
Genesis 48:15-16 (KJV): 15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, 16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

The Angel of YHWH is a title of the SON of GOD throughout the O.T.
The "messengers" identify themselves by name... like Michael and Gabriel.
Yep, the SON can be found throughout O.T., sometimes referred to as The Son of Man.

Lots of threads covering this topic are on this forum. No "parallelism"?

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. - Daniel 7:13-14