Ben Masada
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The true context show us that God is of an Absolute Oneness
Jacob saw God and wrestled with Him
- Thread starter beameup
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The true context show us that God is of an Absolute Oneness
Apple7
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The incarnation was a Triune event.
The Son was not created, Trevor....no matter how much you want it to match your worldview...
Again...you are positing a Jewish invention that attempts to thwart a Triune Creator.
You would need to demonstrate that created angels have the power to create, 'bara'.
Why would God need to create man three 'bara' times...?
Apple7
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The Trinity is ONE God, Ben.
Apple7
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Again...what Hebrew verbs are you using for this 'creative process' that supposedly includes created angels, themselves?
Lets look at the first few passages of Psalm 8...
Yahweh, our Lords, how majestic is Your name in all the earth; who have set Your Glory above the heavens! Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, You have founded strength, on account of Your adversaries, to destroy the enemy taking vengeance. When I look upon Your heavens, the creation of Your fingers: the moon and the stars which You have fixed; what is mankind that You are mindful of him, and The Son of Man, that You observe?
From the get-go, this Psalm is pregnant as a Triune Creation event.
Yahweh is shown to be plural.
'Your Glory' is already known to be The Son in scores of other Biblical passages.
'Your fingers/hands' is also known to be The Spirit in other Biblical passages.
So...what do we have here?
Father.
Son.
Spirit.
Any questions, Trevor....?
Greetings again beameup,
We have an example of representation in the following, and in this example it is Saul and Christ’s faithful believers who are on the ground, while Jesus is observing the situation, but nevertheless very much involved.
Acts 9:1-5 (KJV): 1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this waya, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
1 Corinthians 15:8-9 (KJV): 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, all one event, but one angel representing God the Father.
We have an example of representation in the following, and in this example it is Saul and Christ’s faithful believers who are on the ground, while Jesus is observing the situation, but nevertheless very much involved.
Acts 9:1-5 (KJV): 1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this waya, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
1 Corinthians 15:8-9 (KJV): 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
beameup
New member
Nope, you are deceiving yourself. The Scriptures do not lie or deceive, only Satan does that.
Jacob is said to have wrestled with God. In this case it was Malik-God, THE Angel of the LORD, aka: God the Son. God and God alone has creative powers. God's Word quoted to you describes the singular encounter being with a "man", an "angel", and "God". There is only one being in the universe that fits this description. You have "painted yourself into a corner" which could easily send you to be with Satan, the deceiver, for eternity. Few escape from the Jehovah's Witness program.
The ancient Hebrews clearly understood the triune nature of God.
Greetings again Apple7,
I have tried to cover the general scope of your responses. The Posts concerned (for my reference) are #117-120, 122, 124. When I quote I will add this number within the quote.
Acts 7:30 (KJV): And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
This is again an example of representation, where the angel speaks on Yahweh’s behalf, even using the 1st person, “I am the God of Abraham”.
Genesis 17:22 (KJV): And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
Psalm 8:1-3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
The "Thy" and "Thou" refer to the Yahweh portion of verse 1.
Kind regards
Trevor
I have tried to cover the general scope of your responses. The Posts concerned (for my reference) are #117-120, 122, 124. When I quote I will add this number within the quote.
I have used this as a summary of most of this Post. Have you considered Stephen’s comment?:
Acts 7:30 (KJV): And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
This is again an example of representation, where the angel speaks on Yahweh’s behalf, even using the 1st person, “I am the God of Abraham”.
I was suggesting that it was an angel that had his feet on the ground, talking to Abraham, and yet representing Yahweh. When the angel finished speaking he “went up”, that is returned to heaven. There is only one being, this angel, but the plural “Elohim” is used. The Trinity did not ascend from Abraham, so you need to have another explanation of the plural here.
Genesis 17:22 (KJV): And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
I appreciate the information. One of my mentors mentioned this years ago, but he did not develop fully his explanation, and I have only a tentative explanation.
Because Matthew 11:25-27 alludes to, quotes and expounds many details of Psalm 8:1-5. I view Psalm 8 as the transfer from the kingdoms of men to the Son of Man, Jesus Christ. I believe it commemorates the contest between David and Goliath.
I believe the title Lord here is talking about Jesus’ future role of sitting on the throne of David for 1000 years. He is now sitting on the right hand of God the Father, Yahweh, until that time.
I read Luke 1:35 (KJV) differently. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father is his father (a creative process), and Mary is his mother (a conception of her egg), not because God the Son was somehow shrunk into the womb of Mary.
I will continue to hold this view until I hear a better explanation. The angels have been given God’s power, adequate to fulfil any task given them by God.
Not sure what you are asking here.
The angels were already in existence before Genesis 1:26. God the Father invites the angels: “Let us make ..”.
My Bible has “Thy” and “Thou”.
Psalm 8:1-3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
The "Thy" and "Thou" refer to the Yahweh portion of verse 1.
Kind regards
Trevor
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Greetings again beameup,
Could you please explain one element of how you understand the above? You state that “God's Word quoted to you describes the singular encounter being with a "man"”. Now although I do not accept the normal view of the “Incarnation”, from your perspective then:
1. Was Jesus a man before his Incarnation?
2. Who were the three “men” who visited Abraham in Genesis 18:1-2? Especially if one of these was Jesus, then who were the other two “men”?
Genesis 18:1-3 (KJV): 1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
3. What do you think of the following?
Hebrews 13:2 (KJV): Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Kind regards
Trevor
I have repeatedly stated that I am not a JW. We were before the JWs were formed. I disagree with many of their teachings. I can almost feel the heat of the fires of hell that you are ready to condemn me with.
Could you please explain one element of how you understand the above? You state that “God's Word quoted to you describes the singular encounter being with a "man"”. Now although I do not accept the normal view of the “Incarnation”, from your perspective then:
1. Was Jesus a man before his Incarnation?
2. Who were the three “men” who visited Abraham in Genesis 18:1-2? Especially if one of these was Jesus, then who were the other two “men”?
Genesis 18:1-3 (KJV): 1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
3. What do you think of the following?
Hebrews 13:2 (KJV): Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Kind regards
Trevor
beameup
New member
Sorry, but "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck".
Their foundational heretical theology has been around since the 1st century A.D.
and is addressed in the New Testament by several authors.
Of course, they claim to have a "new revelation", and "new and improved" religion,
but in reality it is very, very old.
Had your "founder" taken the time to read the writings of the Early Church Fathers (disciples of the apostles) he would have known that they taught the tri-unity of God and considered teaching otherwise to be heretical.
Behold, I will send my messenger [mal'ak, ie: John the Baptist],
and he shall prepare the way before ME: and the Lord ['adown], whom ye seek,
shall suddenly come to HIS TEMPLE [ie: MESSIAH], even THE MESSENGER [mal'ak]
of the COVENANT, whom ye delight in: behold, HE shall come, saith the LORD [YHWH] of HOSTS
['hosts',ie: angels]. - Malachi 3:1
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Apple7
New member
Sure thing...reply to any posts that you are able.
I'm breaking them into chunks for that very dedicated purpose.
Trevor, I have considered Stephen's comments, in full context, and there is absolutely no indication that a mere 'angel' was speaking for Yahweh.
The text clearly states that Malek Yahweh speaks AS Yahweh.
Let's look...
Here we have scriptural confirmation that the One God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush is actually The Messenger of The Lord, Malek Yahweh, The Second Person of The Trinity, The Son…
Mark 12.26
But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?
Mark 12 informs the reader that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Acts 7.30 - 39
And forty years being fulfilled to him, The Messenger of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. And seeing, Moses marveled at the sight. And he coming up to look, a voice of the Lord came to him: "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6, 15 But becoming trembly, Moses did not dare to look. And the Lord said to him, "Loosen the sandal from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I surely saw the affliction of My people in Egypt, and I have heard their groan, and I came down to pluck them out. And now, come, I will send you to" Egypt. Ex. 3:5, 7, 8a, 10a This Moses, whom they denied, saying, Who appointed you a ruler and a judge, this one God has sent as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the Bush. This one led them out, having worked wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and forty years in the wilderness. This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, " The Lord your God will raise up a Prophet to you" "from your brothers, One like me." You shall hear Him. Deut. 18:15 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us, to whom our fathers did not desire to be subject, but thrust him away, and turned their hearts back to Egypt,
Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.
No mere angel is referred to as Yahweh.
No mere angel represents Yahweh.
No mere angel receives worship as Yahweh.
Apple7
New member
You sound more like a Christadelphian...yes?
Abraham saw Jesus in the OT…
Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced. Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM! (John 8.56 – 58)
Compare…
Genesis chapters 18 – 19 comprise the longest Trinitarian proof text in the entire Holy Bible.
• Yahweh appears as ‘three men’ to Abraham (Gen 18.1 – 2)
• Abraham addresses the ‘three men’ as ‘my Lords’ (adonai - plural)
• Abrahams responds… “If I have found favor in your (singular) sight (singular)…” (Gen 18.3)
• “They answered Abraham” indicating that each of the ‘three men’ were Lord (Gen 18.5) (Effectively eliminating the three angels or God and two angels argument)
• Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the third person (Gen 18.14, 19)
• God the Father remained to talk with Abraham, then returned to Heaven without going to Sodom (Gen 18.33)
• According to the text, there are at least two Yahwehs in Genesis 18 – 19. One Yahweh stated that he would go down to Sodom – and then two of the ‘three men’ went to Sodom (Gen 18.2, 22; 19.12). Abraham remained talking with another Yahweh (Gen 18.21 – 22). Later, Yahweh is described as being in Heaven while Yahweh is mentioned as being in Sodom (Gen 19.24)
• Gen 18 -19 shows us that there was never such a thing as the ‘Majestic Plural’
Apple7
New member
Don't be shy from showing the verse, Trevor...
And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God. Luke 1.35
The incarnation of God is accomplished via The Trinity:
• Father
• Son
• Spirit
So...where do you see the 'angels' being part of the incarnation, Trevor?
Be honest with yourself...
God's Truth
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Jesus is God the Father made visible with a body.
Apple7
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Ben Masada
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Why, because you have decided it so? Things don't go that way.
Apple7
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Your Tanak tells us so.
Ben Masada
New member
Where in the Tanach?
God's Truth
New member
Nope! That is what you say. The Bible says that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.