Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

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How do you account for this lack of hatred for God on my part (before I was saved), and on the part of others like me?
I don't account for it, for it is but a rationale all non-believers use to lessen their guilt and deserving of eternal punishment. It is simply not true.

Sin is the principle of enmity, whereby we hate God (Rom. 8:7), and He becomes our enemy, as a crime against the government of the universe by which, before God, the supreme governor and judge, we become deserving of everlasting death and malediction. Whence, sinners are expressly called “debtors” (Matthew 6:12), “enemies to God,” both actively and passively (Colossians 1:21), and “guilty before God” (Romans 3:19).

There are only two types of persons, those that love God or those that hate God, God-lovers and God-haters. There are no neutral or middle grounds for all of mankind. Most of the errors of the doctrine of justification are related to the denial of the full impact of the nature of sin in a person’s life. Those that cling to self-righteousness add something to faith alone as the means of justification. It is self-righteousness that lies at the root of a person’s questioning God’s right to judge or the justice of His condemnation. One need only read Matthew 23 to see the folly of this behavior, for it ultimately makes justification a process, a cooperative effort, wherein the defendant (sinner) makes excuses for himself before the Judge (God).

AMR
 

MennoSota

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None of that bothers me, because I know the answers to all those questions. One need only look at the context. Are you thinking what Jesus said was some mystery? Perhaps you aren't paying attention to who He was speaking to or who He was talking about.


I'm just disagreeing with your claims concerning God's will. What you claim makes God unrighteous.
I only have shared the Bible. You, therefore, claim the Bible makes God unrighteous.
 

JudgeRightly

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I only have shared the Bible. You, therefore, claim the Bible makes God unrighteous.
No, you've shared your preferred interpretation of what the Bible says.

Your preferred interpretation of the Bible is what presents Him as unrighteous.

The BIBLE, on it's own, does not teach what you teach.
 

MennoSota

New member
No, you've shared your preferred interpretation of what the Bible says.

Your preferred interpretation of the Bible is what presents Him as unrighteous.

The BIBLE, on it's own, does not teach what you teach.
I have shared what the Bible actually says.
Romans 8:29-33
29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else?33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.
Ephesians 1:3-14
3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son. 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.
9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.
1 Peter 1:1-2
I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

May God give you more and more grace and peace.

I don't need to go on. The Bible is very clear.
Why do you despise what God says?
 

JudgeRightly

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I have shared what the Bible actually says.

No, actually, you didn't. Even the following verses you cherry picked because they support your view.

But if you actually pause for a moment and read what they actually say, within the context that they are written in, then the result is not your beliefs.

Also, whatever Bible version you're using, it's extremely inaccurate.

Romans 8:29-33
29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else?33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.

Here's what it actually says (in context):

Spoiler
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:26-39 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:26-39&version=NKJV


Says nothing about "individuals." Talks about a group of people being 'predestined'.

Ephesians 1:3-14
3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son. 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.
9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

Here's what the passage actually says (in context):

Spoiler
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His gracewhich He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians1:1-14&version=NKJV


Paul is writing to a group of saints. Need I say more?

1 Peter 1:1-2
I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Not sure what verse you're quoting, but it looks nothing like what 1 Peter 1:1-2 reads.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. - 1 Peter 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter1:1-2&version=NKJV

May God give you more and more grace and peace.

:blabla:

I don't need to go on.

To be honest, you shouldn't, and should retrace your steps to find where you went wrong.

I recommend you start by reading through the Bible cover to cover at least 3 times, and then going to the book of Galatians, and reading chapter 2, verses 7-9, and while keeping that in mind, read Acts again, paying attention to how often and when Peter is seen or mentioned in the book, compared to how often and when Paul is seen.

The Bible is very clear.

It is. What's also clear is that you're clearly wrong in your beliefs.

Why do you despise what God says?

I don't answer loaded questions. Or should I ask you if you've stopped beating your wife yet?
 

MennoSota

New member
No, actually, you didn't. Even the following verses you cherry picked because they support your view.

But if you actually pause for a moment and read what they actually say, within the context that they are written in, then the result is not your beliefs.

Also, whatever Bible version you're using, it's extremely inaccurate.



Here's what it actually says (in context):

Spoiler
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:26-39 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:26-39&version=NKJV


Says nothing about "individuals." Talks about a group of people being 'predestined'.



Here's what the passage actually says (in context):

Spoiler
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His gracewhich He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians1:1-14&version=NKJV


Paul is writing to a group of saints. Need I say more?



Not sure what verse you're quoting, but it looks nothing like what 1 Peter 1:1-2 reads.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. - 1 Peter 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter1:1-2&version=NKJV



:blabla:



To be honest, you shouldn't, and should retrace your steps to find where you went wrong.

I recommend you start by reading through the Bible cover to cover at least 3 times, and then going to the book of Galatians, and reading chapter 2, verses 7-9, and while keeping that in mind, read Acts again, paying attention to how often and when Peter is seen or mentioned in the book, compared to how often and when Paul is seen.



It is. What's also clear is that you're clearly wrong in your beliefs.



I don't answer loaded questions. Or should I ask you if you've stopped beating your wife yet?
I knew you would look to excuse yourself and avoid scripture.
From Genesis to Revelation we read about God choosing whom he will graciously save. We see it in the garden. We see it with Noah, with Abraham, with Jacob, with Joseph, with Moses, etc, etc, etc. The pattern is so obvious that only a blind and deaf person cannot see it and believe it.
Again, I pity you.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Advance apologies for not responding to this sooner. I have scattered times that I can post and read, so I get behind in responses I want to make (sometimes giving up altogether).

I hope this doesn't create too much of a parallel thread within a thread since I'm going back several pages to respond...

I, for one, do not understand how any Calvinist can fancy such concern to be at all consistent with Calvinism. If I am not mistaken, according to Calvinism, God does not love all mankind; there are some persons--perhaps the vast majority of mankind--whom God does not love. God does not love these people, so, how much sense would it make to say that God is "concerned for their souls"? None. God is not concerned for their unfathomably dismal prospect of a future in endless, fiery torment; nay, according to Calvinism, He predestinated them to that horrific eschatological plight, according to His good pleasure. He is pleased with, rather than sorrowful over, the prospect of their horror and torment. And yet, Calvinists come along and claim that they, themselves, have a sorrowful heart for the lost. Now, if I'm not mistaken, according to Calvinism, there is no warrant to say to the lost, indiscriminately, "Jesus loves you, and He died for you," since the Calvinist knows not (and avows that he knows not) the status of the individual. Is this or that lost guy one of God's elect, or is he one of the non-elect, the eternally reprobate? The Calvinist claims not to know either way, and so, since he knows not, he doesn't want to risk affirming falsehood to a non-elect guy: "Hey, you. Jesus loves you, and He died for you!"

I understand that seeming struggle (not understanding why one can't indiscriminately say "Jesus died for you"). And maybe it doesn't come naturally (thinking that way), but the Calvinist is not inconsistent. Paul says this to Timothy :

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
I Timothy 1:15

And if that were all, the question would still be hanging out there (why not just say "Jesus died for you!" to everyone since all are sinners?). But Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost (speaking of the lost sheep of the house of Israel in his earthly ministry but the world after His death and resurrection). In so doing, he said this to the Jews :

And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 2:16-17

Again...all are sinners...all have sinned. The Jewish leaders were no exception but Jesus makes it clear that He didn't come specifically for the Pharisees etc... - he came for those that were sinners but knew it and were not putting on airs or pretensions of being something else. He emphatically did NOT come for them. He says as much. So to say to a hardened sinner that Jesus died for him is not the same as saying that Jesus died for sinners (even though all are sinners). Until a man is convicted of his sin and finds himself in need of that Physician, he won't go anywhere near Him.

Now, to the Pharisees (who are actually sinners but who are not inclined to come to Him because they are not His sheep -- John 10:25-27), He frames things a little differently :

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 9:39-41

Jesus came to bring judgment upon those who are sinners. But there is again a distinction between those who are humbled as sinners and those who are hardened in their sin. Because the Pharisees denied their sinfulness, they claimed that they did not need a Physician (to borrow the context of the previous passage) and so Christ did not come for them and so their sin remains. Did Christ die for them? If He did, would their sin have remained? This was pre-cross, so there is the chance that some of them did repent after Christ arose. Certainly Paul did - but even he says that he was set apart from his mother's womb and Christ was revealed in him at the time determined by God (Gal 1:15). But the cross is not for the unrepentant. And repentance is not possible without conviction. And conviction can only be brought by the Holy Spirit. So unless a man is drawn by God, he will remain in his sins and he is separate from the cross. Do how can you honestly tell someone that Christ died for him personally? Christ died for sinners. But until one is brought to conviction and repentance (the work of God) that man is not in the group Christ spoke of (the sick, the sinners). Even the man who agrees he is a sinner but wants to stay in his sin is yet in unbelief. Only God can make that man see his need of Christ.

And as maybe an afterthought, Matthew tells us:

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 1:20-21

But, what seems, to me, a deeper question, here, is, why should the Calvinist even be concerned, and even the least bit moved with passion and sorrow over the souls of those whom, according to Calvinism, Jesus, Himself, does not even love or sorrow over? Why should the Calvinist be moved with any pity at all over the soul's plight whom Calvinism's Jesus, according to His own good pleasure, predestined to an inexorable suffering of endless, unmitigated agony? Why should the Calvinist, himself, love those whom Calvinism's Jesus does not love? Whence comes this compassion for souls by which Calvinists claim to be moved to preaching Calvinism? Does the Holy Spirit imbue them with it? I'm specifically talking about those non-elect to whom Calvinists reach out with the imperative to repent and believe Calvinism. If God does not love, nor pity those non-elect persons, it seems quite strange to imagine that the Holy Spirit would fill the Calvinist with a compassion and pity for those non-elect persons. It seems more like the Calvinist's love and compassion for those whom God, Himself, does not even love, needs to be filed, instead, under the category of prideful defiance of God. It seems that, on account of a cognitive dissonance, the Calvinist's professed sorrow and compassion over the plight of the non-elect amounts to a declaration that, "Whereas God does not love y'all at all, and is actually pleased to throw you into hell to watch you burn, we, on the contrary, have no pleasure in the thought of your burning, and we do love you, and are very sorry to see your suffering!"

Now, of course, I am not the least bit complaining against those Calvinists who are, indeed, compassionate in regard to the plight of those they consider the non-elect--I am not complaining against them for their compassion. What I am complaining about is the cognitive dissonance that allows them to feel free to be compassionate in that way while believing things which necessarily clash with that compassion. I'm all for their (your?) compassion for the non-elect, but that very compassion is, as far as I can tell, a stark testimony against Calvinism.

To use the common analogy of a man running headlong towards a cliff (though the Calvinist might say that man is dead in sin and so not running anywhere and so that analogy is faulty), the concern you have is also - to some extent - a concern that the arm of the Lord is indeed too short to save some. In other words, if the end is really simply to keep someone from a fiery fate, then doesn't God Himself have the power to instantly change everyone so that all are kept from this hell that God wants no one to go to? The universalist, at least, consistently (in this, anyway) admits of that fact and says that God indeed does save everyone because God loves everyone. Is God really "betting" the fate of millions on whether or not another one of His children will have enough compassion to witness to another soul? Is God simply not doing what He could because man's free will is preventing Him (even if only because He has supposedly limited Himself so as not to violate a man's supposed free will)? Is God really waiting and hoping that the masses will just wake up and see how good they can have it in Christ? How they can live forever? If that end were really the sum and substance of salvation, I would have to agree with you. But the Lord is also judging something.

When Jesus spoke to the (unbelieving) Jews in John 10, He told them this :

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:26-28

Jesus wasn't coming to find just anyone who would listen to Him, but those that would listen to Him and follow Him believed Him because they were His sheep. That's why the Jews Jesus was speaking to did not believe. It wasn't that they weren't his sheep because they didn't believe, but rather they didn't believe because they weren't His sheep. They were those to whom He would give eternal life. They were those who would never perish and be "unpluckable". So what is He judging here? Is He judging someone's free will or is Jesus judging a precondition?

So to return to the analogy, if you want to use that analogy and look at those who reject Christ and run headlong into hell - God could easily put out the fires of hell or simply stop all the spiritual lemmings from running off the cliff. But Jesus is "unmerciful" in His speaking to someone who He says is not His sheep and who (if the connection be apt) says "I can see" - so his sin remains. What kind of a God (the argument goes) can say He loves yet keeps hell in place? What kind of a God (the argument goes) saves some and not others? I believe - with George Whitefield, etc... that we are to weep over the lost. And I believe that love is part and parcel of the love of God. But the parallel has to stop somewhere. We would do all we could to see as many saved as possible. But were God to do that, who would be lost? The only refuge the Arminian (I use that generally as the one who resists Calvinism) has - that I can see - is to say that God is waiting for man to decide - He is waiting for man to turn to Him of his own free will. But the same one who says that would use the analogy of the one running headlong off a cliff and another warning him. Is it not more love to rather jump on the man and tackle him before he actually does jump off that cliff? How much more can God - in His sovereignty - arrest a man and turn him around?

So the very argument about not loving sinners enough is (as I see it) a cloak (and I would say it is quite often unwittingly so) for seeing God as unjust. And I am realizing that the conscious, willing mind of a fallen man masks the full depth of sin in the wicked heart (Jeremiah 17:9) to a degree that is staggering and would honestly shock most people who aren't aware of it. So instead, we have to deal with man choosing God at a superficial level - and as a result, Christianity has become very superficial. But I'm getting off into other areas that are not directly related to the above.
 

JudgeRightly

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I knew you would look to excuse yourself and avoid scripture.

And I knew you would say something like this to avoid the points I brought up.

From Genesis to Revelation we read about God choosing whom he will graciously save.

Incorrect.

From Genesis to Revelation we read about God choosing people to do tasks.

We see it in the garden.

Huh?

We see it with Noah,

Noah was chosen to build an ark.

with Abraham,

Abraham was chosen because God wanted to make a nation out of Him.

with Jacob,

Same as above.

with Joseph,

Chosen to save God's chosen people, Jacob and his family, from a famine.

with Moses,

Chosen to lead God's chosen nation out of Egypt.

etc, etc, etc.

So far, you're 0 for 6.

Care to continue?

The pattern is so obvious that only a blind and deaf person cannot see it and believe it.

Says the blind and deaf fool.

Again, I pity you.

Perhaps you should look in a mirror.

Is it even a possibility in you're mind that you're mistaken?
 

God's Truth

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Calvinists say God choose them for no reason that they know of, and they are the elect.

However, the Bible tells us why God chooses those He chooses.

God chooses/elects those He does because the person did what He likes.

They struggle and overcome.

They fear Him and do right.

They get Jesus' teachings and obey them.
 

MennoSota

New member
And I knew you would say something like this to avoid the points I brought up.



Incorrect.

From Genesis to Revelation we read about God choosing people to do tasks.



Huh?



Noah was chosen to build an ark.



Abraham was chosen because God wanted to make a nation out of Him.



Same as above.



Chosen to save God's chosen people, Jacob and his family, from a famine.



Chosen to lead God's chosen nation out of Egypt.



So far, you're 0 for 6.

Care to continue?



Says the blind and deaf fool.



Perhaps you should look in a mirror.

Is it even a possibility in you're mind that you're mistaken?
God chose. That is the point. Even you admit this, while trying to limit God only to a task.
You know God chooses. He reveals this. Yet, you deny it or you categorize God's ability to choose into areas while denying that God, sovereignly, chooses whom He will give to Jesus.
John 6:36-40
36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me.37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”
Scripture is clear. I pity you.
 

God's Truth

New member
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Acts 10:35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
 

JudgeRightly

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God chose. That is the point. Even you admit this, while trying to limit God only to a task.
You know God chooses. He reveals this. Yet, you deny it or you categorize God's ability to choose into areas while denying that God, sovereignly, chooses whom He will give to Jesus.

This is called "moving the goalposts." It is a logical fallacy.

Your original claim was that "God chose whom he saved."

And I showed you that was wrong.

Your statement now is "God chose people."

Which I have no disagreement with.

John 6:36-40
36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me.37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

Good scripture. Thanks for posting it.

Scripture is clear.

I agree. It's clear....-ly not saying what you want it to say.

I pity you.

You won't even answer my question, why should I believe you?

Is it even a possibility in your mind that you might be wrong?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
LOL, you are lying through your teeth. God tells us He chooses, elects and predestines. This is fact, not opinion. Yet, you hate that message and call God unloving and unequitable.
Meanwhile, you pick and choose whom you love, yet you don't think of yourself as unloving and unequitable.
Why do you hate what God says, art?

I'm not lying at all and your declaring something as fact means nothing.
 

God's Truth

New member
God chooses those who love Him by their obeying Him.

That is who God loves back and saves.

Hebrews 4:1
[ A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God ] Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.

Here Jesus promises us IF YOU are obedient:

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

John 8:31[ Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are ]
Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, "If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples

John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

1 John 2:3 And by this we may know that we know Him--if we obey His commands.

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey my commandments.

God rewards those who obey Him:
Ex 19:5; Jn 15:10, Dt 5:29; 1Ki 3:14; 2Ki 18:5-7; Mt 7:21,24-25,Lk 6:47-48; Mt 12:50, Mk 3:35, Lk 8:21; Jn 12:26; Jn 14:21,23; Jn 21:4-6; 1Jn 2:17
 

MennoSota

New member
This is called "moving the goalposts." It is a logical fallacy.

Your original claim was that "God chose whom he saved."

And I showed you that was wrong.

Your statement now is "God chose people."

Which I have no disagreement with.



Good scripture. Thanks for posting it.



I agree. It's clear....-ly not saying what you want it to say.



You won't even answer my question, why should I believe you?

Is it even a possibility in your mind that you might be wrong?
Indeed, you are moving the goalposts. I have provided verse upon verse and then you attempt to move the goalpost.
You prove yourself to have no argument.
 
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