Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

[Right Divider]

Paul says that the Gentiles were saved while uncircumcised enemies.

And YET you always say that God only saves those that obey!

You are amazingly confused!

 

[Rosenritter]

Why are you one of those chosen? Why are you spared that which your "reprobate" neighbour is fated to? Why are you exempt from the eternal torment that God dictates for others not so lucky as yourself? You go on about how people should be awed as to how God saves anybody but hey, that's a lot easier to say when you believe you're not going to be part of the torment isn't it?

If I understand the Theology correctly he cannot know whether he is one of the chosen for certain, because "non-chosen" can be deluded into believing they are "chosen."

 

[meshak]

And YET you always say that God only saves those that obey!

You are amazingly confused!

what do you have against obeying the Lord?

my goodness.

 

[Right Divider]

what do you have against obeying the Lord?

my goodness.

Obeying the LORD is what everyone should do. But salvation by GRACE through faith is not a reward for obedience, it is a GIFT that you and GT will not accept.

The two of you should take your false doctrines and go back on a permanent vacation from TOL.

 

[Idolater]

Luke 4:4 KJV
(4) And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Agreed (of course).

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-underground-translator

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That "exasperated Catholic scholar" was an ignoramus to pit God's law against the bishops' authoritative teachings on faith and morals. They (including the popes) teach God's law.

 

[meshak]

Obeying the LORD is what everyone should do.

It does not seem it is your main goal to obey Jesus.

 

[Rosenritter]

To use the common analogy of a man running headlong towards a cliff (though the Calvinist might say that man is dead in sin and so not running anywhere and so that analogy is faulty), the concern you have is also - to some extent - a concern that the arm of the Lord is indeed too short to save some. In other words, if the end is really simply to keep someone from a fiery fate, then doesn't God Himself have the power to instantly change everyone so that all are kept from this hell that God wants no one to go to? The universalist, at least, consistently (in this, anyway) admits of that fact and says that God indeed does save everyone because God loves everyone. Is God really "betting" the fate of millions on whether or not another one of His children will have enough compassion to witness to another soul? Is God simply not doing what He could because man's free will is preventing Him (even if only because He has supposedly limited Himself so as not to violate a man's supposed free will)? Is God really waiting and hoping that the masses will just wake up and see how good they can have it in Christ? How they can live forever? If that end were really the sum and substance of salvation, I would have to agree with you. But the Lord is also judging something.

Actually, God really is waiting to wake the masses.

John 5:28-29 KJV
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Let us suppose that someone has only heard a false corrupted gospel before they fell on sleep and rise with the rest of the dead, small and great, before the throne in Revelation. Do you think that God will let this human failing prevent him from revealing Himself in that day? In that day of the greater resurrection it says that books are opened and another book of life; some walk into life and some into fire. Had these been saints in Christ before they fell on sleep they were already in the first resurrection. So for the rest of the dead, is God revealed in that day or is He not?

 

[God's Truth]

And YET you always say that God only saves those that obey!

You are amazingly confused!

...because circumcision done by hands is no longer the way.

 

[Right Divider]

It does not seem it is your main goal to obey Jesus.

My main goal is to speak the truth against your lies.

 

[meshak]

My main goal is to speak the truth against your lies.

that seems about right, except your goal is spreading the false gospel too.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul says that the Gentiles were saved while uncircumcised enemies.

What used to keep the Gentiles separate and without God---through the body and blood of Jesus we are all brought near.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

...because circumcision done by hands is no longer the way.

You're double-minded in all your ways.

You claim that BOTH Jesus only saves those that obey and that the gentiles were saved while uncircumcised ENEMIES.

Or is it your bizarre contention that God's ENEMIES obey Him?

 

[Rosenritter]

Whoever wrote Hebrews was so much like Paul they could have been mistaken as the same person.

I don't always sign all of my personal letters.

Hebrews 13:22-25 KJV
(22) And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.
(23) Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.
(24) Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
(25) Grace be with you all. Amen. Written to the Hebrews from Italy, by Timothy.

Was Timothy in the business of writing letters for lots of other people? If it bears no other signature we already know that he was in the habit of writing for Paul.

Spoiler

Or wait, could this be that some theologies may not like reminders that Paul would write to Hebrew people?

2 Peter 3:15 KJV
(15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

 

[nikolai_42]

Paul says that the Gentiles were saved while uncircumcised enemies.

What used to keep the Gentiles separate and without God---through the body and blood of Jesus we are all brought near.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Okay...but that doesn't answer the question. Are faith and obedience inextricably tied AND does one proceed from the other? If so, which one?

Bump to ensure this isn't missed (I will delete if you respond to the original)

 

[nikolai_42]

Actually, God really is waiting to wake the masses.

John 5:28-29 KJV
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Let us suppose that someone has only heard a false corrupted gospel before they fell on sleep and rise with the rest of the dead, small and great, before the throne in Revelation. Do you think that God will let this human failing prevent him from revealing Himself in that day? In that day of the greater resurrection it says that books are opened and another book of life; some walk into life and some into fire. Had these been saints in Christ before they fell on sleep they were already in the first resurrection. So for the rest of the dead, is God revealed in that day or is He not?

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

Those names in the book of Life? It seems they have been there for quite some time...

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:8

It seems to me that there are "the books" and then there is "the book" (of Life):

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

So God is revealed and there will be no "human failing" as an excuse for not believing.

 

[Rosenritter]

Okay...but that doesn't answer the question. Are faith and obedience inextricably tied AND does one proceed from the other? If so, which one?

You can have obedience unto God without faith, but you cannot have faith unto God without obedience. If you love God and trust him you are no longer his servant but his friend.

John 15:12-15 KJV
(12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
(14) Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
(15) Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

 

[meshak]

Actually, God really is waiting to wake the masses.

John 5:28-29 KJV
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Let us suppose that someone has only heard a false corrupted gospel before they fell on sleep and rise with the rest of the dead, small and great, before the throne in Revelation. Do you think that God will let this human failing prevent him from revealing Himself in that day? In that day of the greater resurrection it says that books are opened and another book of life; some walk into life and some into fire. Had these been saints in Christ before they fell on sleep they were already in the first resurrection. So for the rest of the dead, is God revealed in that day or is He not?

I don't believe anyone who follows false gospel will be resurrected.

God cannot be mocked.

Jesus says narrow is the way to life and only a few find it.

blessings.

 

[Rosenritter]

Agreed (of course).
That "exasperated Catholic scholar" was an ignoramus to pit God's law against the bishops' authoritative teachings on faith and morals. They (including the popes) teach God's law.

Like the morals that "no faith is to be kept with heretics" that was used to justify murdering those who came to speak under a promise of safe passage? Like Jan Hus?

Joshua 9:15-27 KJV
(15) And Joshua made peace with them, and made a league with them, to let them live: and the princes of the congregation sware unto them.

(22) And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?
(23) Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.
(24) And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.
(25) And now, behold, we are in thine hand: as it seemeth good and right unto thee to do unto us, do.
(26) And so did he unto them, and delivered them out of the hand of the children of Israel, that they slew them not.
(27) And Joshua made them that day hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation, and for the altar of the LORD, even unto this day, in the place which he should choose.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It is truth. Your denial means nothing. [emoji41]

Nor do your claims.

 

[Rosenritter]

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

Those names in the book of Life? It seems they have been there for quite some time...

We are shown that the book of life is not an immutable book. Names are being written, and names can be blotted out. It isn't static; it is described as a book, not a tablet of stone.

Exodus 32:33 KJV
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Revelation 22:19 KJV
(19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So God is revealed and there will be no "human failing" as an excuse for not believing.

I think it is indisputable that that any disbelief or misunderstanding as to who is our God could persist at that point. That would be the most basic prerequisite for belief in Christ, would be to know first of all Who He was and that He Actually Was.

Spoiler

But let's take this a step further, because "believing" can include both the simplest intellectual belief "the devils believe, and tremble" and surely there is no misunderstanding between us that this simple "belief" is not what is meant in the sense of John 3:16, "believing."

When you consider the nature of God and Christ and how he revealed himself through the gospels and the other scriptures, does he seem like the type that would finally reveal himself to those who have not seen and then say "oops, too late?" How much "time" is required for the heart to believe? When one truly repents, is there forgiveness maybe later (after it is worked for and earned) or upon sincere repentance is forgiveness effective immediately? ... the thief on the cross comes to mind?

 

[Rosenritter]

I don't believe anyone who follows false gospel will be resurrected.

God cannot be mocked.

Jesus says narrow is the way to life and only a few find it.

blessings.

Paul was mistaken then?

Acts 24:14-16 KJV
(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
(16) And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

If those that follow false gospels are not among the just, would they not then be counted among the unjust? This is not something new Paul proclaims, it is written in the law and the prophets.