Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

[meshak]

Paul was mistaken then?

Acts 24:14-16 KJV
(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
(16) And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

If those that follow false gospels are not among the just, would they not then be counted among the unjust?

So you dismiss Jesus' word?

 

[Rosenritter]

So you dismiss Jesus' word?

Only if you can show me where Jesus denies the resurrection of the unjust.

Daniel 12:2 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:41 KJV
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[nikolai_42]

We are shown that the book of life is not an immutable book. Names are being written, and names can be blotted out. It isn't static; it is described as a book, not a tablet of stone.

Exodus 32:33 KJV
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Revelation 22:19 KJV
(19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.



I think it is indisputable that that any disbelief or misunderstanding as to who is our God could persist at that point. That would be the most basic prerequisite for belief in Christ, would be to know first of all Who He was and that He Actually Was.

Spoiler

But let's take this a step further, because "believing" can include both the simplest intellectual belief "the devils believe, and tremble" and surely there is no misunderstanding between us that this simple "belief" is not what is meant in the sense of John 3:16, "believing."

When you consider the nature of God and Christ and how he revealed himself through the gospels and the other scriptures, does he seem like the type that would finally reveal himself to those who have not seen and then say "oops, too late?" How much "time" is required for the heart to believe? When one truly repents, is there forgiveness maybe later (after it is worked for and earned) or upon sincere repentance is forgiveness effective immediately? ... the thief on the cross comes to mind?

You only quoted instances where someone was blotted out of the book. I don't remember anywhere in scripture where someone's name is specifically added to it. Therefore, it is still consistent to say that whoever is in that book was in there from the foundation of the world.

 

[God's Truth]

You're double-minded in all your ways.

You claim that BOTH Jesus only saves those that obey and that the gentiles were saved while uncircumcised ENEMIES.

Or is it your bizarre contention that God's ENEMIES obey Him?

They were enemies because they did not enter the covenant of circumcision.
That was the old law.

 

[Rosenritter]

You only quoted instances where someone was blotted out of the book. I don't remember anywhere in scripture where someone's name is specifically added to it. Therefore, it is still consistent to say that whoever is in that book was in there from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 20:12-15 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

"Was not found written" also is consistent with the writing taking place during this judgment.

I think you are reading the passages as if the the writing of all names was from the foundation of the world. I would say rather that the book itself is from the foundation of the world, just as the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world (compare Rev 13:8, 17:8).

And if names can be blotted out, how much more does it stand to reason that names can be written in? Since you have acknowledged that names can be removed, that proves it is not static. Since the book of life is not the only image we are given of salvation, I would point to the gospel to demonstrate that we can be added unto life.

John 3:16-18 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The default state is "condemned" (which means not written in the book of life) but whosoever believeth in him should have everlasting life (which means being written in the book) ... and we have already agreed that God can blot out or remove names which have been written.

 

[God's Truth]

You only quoted instances where someone was blotted out of the book. I don't remember anywhere in scripture where someone's name is specifically added to it. Therefore, it is still consistent to say that whoever is in that book was in there from the foundation of the world.

Malachi 3:16-17
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

 

[Idolater]

What is a Clavinist? :idunno:

A Clavinist is to a Romanist, what a Calvinist is to a Catholic.

You're welcome to cease with the pejoratives, which you yourself started, and to continue with weightier matters, if you wish.

Or, perhaps you are just trying to be clever? Epic fail. Are these tactics proper in discussions of important matters of the faith among adults?

You tell me.

 

[nikolai_42]

Revelation 20:12-15 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

"Was not found written" also is consistent with the writing taking place during this judgment.

I think you are reading the passages as if the the writing of all names was from the foundation of the world. I would say rather that the book itself is from the foundation of the world, just as the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world (compare Rev 13:8, 17:8).

And if names can be blotted out, how much more does it stand to reason that names can be written in? Since you have acknowledged that names can be removed, that proves it is not static. Since the book of life is not the only image we are given of salvation, I would point to the gospel to demonstrate that we can be added unto life.

John 3:16-18 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The default state is "condemned" (which means not written in the book of life) but whosoever believeth in him should have everlasting life (which means being written in the book) ... and we have already agreed that God can blot out or remove names which have been written.

I'm only stating that which is found in scripture in that there is not an instance of being added to that book. To state we can be added to it is not something we find in scripture. It is an assumption to say that just because someone can be blotted out means also that someone can be added. Someone's believing and salvation need only be evidence that they were already in the book. And as to them being written in at the judgment - Moses was already aware of being in the book (Exodus 32:32). And if one takes the wording exactly ("...book that thou hast written...") it was already written in Moses' day. Not being written.

 

[nikolai_42]

Malachi 3:16-17
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Note, though, that that is not the book that God already wrote which Moses referred to in Exodus 32:32. A book of remembrance is referred to in Malachi, not a book of life.

I'm still hoping you'll respond to my last response to you (#179, bumped in #193)

 

[MennoSota]

Nor do your claims.

You mean the scripture, God's word, which you desire to ignore and sweep away?!

 

[God's Truth]

Okay...but that doesn't answer the question. Are faith and obedience inextricably tied AND does one proceed from the other? If so, which one?

Yes, they are tied together, and it doesn't matter which one comes first, for the one who has faith must have right action or the faith is dead; the one who does right will come to have faith, see John 7:17.

 

[God's Truth]

Note, though, that that is not the book that God already wrote which Moses referred to in Exodus 32:32. A book of remembrance is referred to in Malachi, not a book of life.

God knows who will be saved and He can blot people out.

I'm still hoping you'll respond to my last response to you (#179, bumped in #193)

Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[nikolai_42]

Yes, they are tied together, and it doesn't matter which one comes first, for the one who has faith must have right action or the faith is dead; the one who does right will come to have faith, see John 7:17.

Then by your own words ("the one who does right will come to have faith", it is salvation by obedience, not salvation unto obedience.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:4-10

Someone who is brought to faith will gladly obey, but the one brought to faith via obedience (if such a thing is even possible) sees a tyrant for a master. That's just the law being against us.

No strength of nature can suffice
To serve the LORD aright;
And what she has, she misapplies,
For want of clearer light.

How long beneath the law I lay
In bondage and distress!
I toiled the precept to obey,
But toiled without success.

Then to abstain from outward sin
Was more than I could do;
Now, if I feel its pow’r within,
I feel I hate it too.

Then all my servile works were done
A righteousness to raise;
Now, freely chosen in the Son,
I freely choose his ways.

What shall I do was then the word,
That I may worthier grow?
What shall I render to the LORD?
Is my enquiry now.

To see the Law by CHRIST fulfilled,
And hear his pard’ning voice;
Changes a slave into a child,
And duty into choice.

 

[MennoSota]

The DOCTRINE in Hebrews CANNOT be mistaken for the DOCTRINE in the Pauline epistles.

Indeed, both are saying the same thing because both are given by God and God is not the author of confusion.
Conclusion: You are wrong. [emoji41]

 

[Right Divider]

Indeed, both are saying the same thing because both are given by God and God is not the author of confusion.
Conclusion: You are wrong. [emoji41]

:mock: "it all says the same thing"

 

[God's Truth]

Then by your own words ("the one who does right will come to have faith", it is salvation by obedience, not salvation unto obedience.

Jesus says his words are Spirit and life. You must do what he says to get the Spirit and life.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not of the works of the law, which are the purification/ceremonial works.

Paul is saying not of circumcision and the blood of animals.

Paul is NOT saying it is by not obeying Jesus.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We do what Jesus says to do to make our heart right for him to live there, then we receive him and he lives to help us.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

That is about believing in his blood to clean you instead of using the blood of animals and special baths, diet, and circumcision.

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

See, it is about the purification works that God gave Moses to teach and enforce.

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That means don't doubt Jesus and his blood cleaning you of the sins you repent of instead of sacrificing animals, etc.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:4-10

It says to say Jesus is your Lord. Jesus if you call him 'Lord', then you had better be obeying.

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Someone who is brought to faith will gladly obey,

No not true, for I know many people with faith yet they are sinners as always.

but the one brought to faith via obedience (if such a thing is even possible) sees a tyrant for a master. That's just the law being against us.

Oh no, you are wrong, for it is powerful to obey Jesus. Jesus says the one who 'willfully' does what he says will find out, which means will have faith.
How can anyone think Jesus a tyrant if they do what he says by humbling themselves like a child and trusting him? How can they not see the power in that after doing it? How can they think him a tyrant if they do what he says and forgive everyone who has sinned against them? They would feel the power.

 

[God's Truth]

No strength of nature can suffice
To serve the LORD aright;
And what she has, she misapplies,
For want of clearer light.

How long beneath the law I lay
In bondage and distress!
I toiled the precept to obey,
But toiled without success.

Then to abstain from outward sin
Was more than I could do;
Now, if I feel its pow’r within,
I feel I hate it too.

Then all my servile works were done
A righteousness to raise;
Now, freely chosen in the Son,
I freely choose his ways.

What shall I do was then the word,
That I may worthier grow?
What shall I render to the LORD?
Is my enquiry now.

To see the Law by CHRIST fulfilled,
And hear his pard’ning voice;
Changes a slave into a child,
And duty into choice.

Not all only do bad.
For God came for those who fear Him and do right.
They are the ones who come into the light.
Those are the ones on the side of truth.

See Acts 10:35, Acts 13:26, John 18:37, John 3:21.

 

[Right Divider]

Not all only do bad.
For God came for those who fear Him and do right.
They are the ones who come into the light.
Those are the ones on the side of truth.

See Acts 10:35, Acts 13:26, John 18:37, John 3:21.

Once again ... any scripture but Paul's epistles.

Until you learn that God gives different people different instructions at different times, you will be continually confused.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

A Clavinist is to a Romanist, what a Calvinist is to a Catholic.

You're welcome to cease with the pejoratives, which you yourself started, and to continue with weightier matters, if you wish.
You tell me.

http://theologyonline.com/entry.php...not-Pejorative-Except-to-the-Overly-Sensitive

The term Romanist is not normally used as a pejorative, despite the claims of the Roman Catholic.

Romanist is but a normative term for Roman Catholics, just as Calvinist is a loose synonym for the Reformed that espouse a particular view of the doctrines of grace, among many other things particular to the Reformed, yet not held by all Calvinists.

AMR

 

[God's Truth]

Once again ... any scripture but Paul's epistles.

Until you learn that God give different people different instruction at different times, you will be continually confused.

Paul was the minister to the covenant/gospel that Jesus gave.

He taught the same thing.

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Peter taught God does not show favoritism.

Acts 10

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism


Paul taught God does not show favoritism.


That is the exact thing Paul says in Romans 10:12, and Romans 2:11.


John the baptizer

Matthew 3:2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."

Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit worthy of repentance.

Luke 3:8 Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Jesus Christ

Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."

Paul the Apostle

Acts 20:21 testifying to Jews and Greeks alike about repentance to God and faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 20:26 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.