Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

Rosenritter

New member
That's fine. I can see that you're heartily convinced, and I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise since I can't match your passion for this topic. :)

Do you have any support for your alternative view? Because sans support I guarantee you that I remain unconvinced.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Calvinism is not the Gospel.

The Gospel is;
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Do you have any support for your alternative view? Because sans support I guarantee you that I remain unconvinced.
You already have it, and you disagree with my view, and that's fine that you remain unconvinced. I'm not trying to convince you, and further, I've been considering your view openly. You haven't convinced me yet either, but I am giving it a shot. ;)
 

Rosenritter

New member
You already have it, and you disagree with my view, and that's fine that you remain unconvinced. I'm not trying to convince you, and further, I've been considering your view openly. You haven't convinced me yet either, but I am giving it a shot. ;)

OK, not for purposes of being argumentative but I must have totally missed where you offered support that "spirits in prison" could be considered as humans.

John 3:6 KJV
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Spoiler
Humans have spirit as a component but I haven't seen an example where they are called spirits...
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
I always have to wonder what Way is thinking (you're not much for words, Mr. Way) but I think I just now realized what (you thought) your point was. Sorry for the delay...
no problem Rosen

The dead are raised for the judgment? But according to your belief (if I understand it correctly) the dead have already been judged as guilty and have already been receiving punishment.
to put it in human terms we put people in jail while they await trial then after judgement prison

1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,

Besides this, if they were conscious without the resurrection, then why would they need to be raised for judgment? They could be judged (again) in the state they are already in.
So sorry, but that proposed reason doesn't add up. Do you have any other explanations as to why the dead would need to be raised for judgment, if they were already conscious and being punished in a conscious state before and without the resurrection?
to put it in human terms criminals appear before the judge , the judge does not go to them
but i guess you mean physical bodies which I know Christians get but the dead™ not sure they get physical bodies .

™the dead = non Christian

Mat 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
Mat 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

BTW @way 2 go, is there a short name (nick name) that I may use? Typing "Way 2 Go" always seems a bit stiff. I take no offense at "Rosen" or "Rose" or even "Rosy" if you need a short form for me.

w2g is fine
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
God is a spirit, and

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

... but the actual dead (not the demonic impostors) are not called spirits. .

called souls \ spirits

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the soulsG5590 of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

soulsG5590 =
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely
 
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Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
OK, not for purposes of being argumentative but I must have totally missed where you offered support that "spirits in prison" could be considered as humans.

John 3:6 KJV
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Spoiler
Humans have spirit as a component but I haven't seen an example where they are called spirits...
I believe 'soul' and 'spirit' wrt specifically and exclusively people (not God the Spirit), and specifically in contrast, in context, to 'body,' are almost perfect synonyms, and that 'spirits' is an acceptable word to use for people after their bodies' death. So I think that Peter was talking about people.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

called souls \ spirits

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the soulsG5590 of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

soulsG5590 =
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely

Way2go, your quote tags got a bit butchered... but even compensating for what I think you meant, you seem to have disproved your own point. Revelation 6:9 uses imagery of dead saints, and the word is chose was "souls" and not "spirits."

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (H5315).

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (G5590); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (G4151)

For clarification, souls (nephesh) includes sheep and cattle (see Numbers 31:28) but Jesus (who ascended to heaven) was made a spirit (pneuma) ... just as he said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That same word spirit is also used for apparitions (Luke 24;37) and devils (Revelation 16:14, 18:2).

So what is the point? Are you suggesting that the King James is incorrectly translating this word, and that Paul likewise incorrectly translated Genesis in his reference in 1 Corinthians? You haven't put forth any examples to show where (human) people are called spirits.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Way2go, your quote tags got a bit butchered...
:(

but even compensating for what I think you meant, you seem to have disproved your own point. Revelation 6:9 uses imagery of dead saints, and the word is chose was "souls" and not "spirits."
:chuckle:
soulsG5590 =
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit,


Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (H5315).


1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (G5590); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (G4151)

For clarification, souls (nephesh) includes sheep and cattle (see Numbers 31:28) but Jesus (who ascended to heaven) was made a spirit (pneuma) ... just as he said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The same word spirit is used for apparitions (Luke 24;37) and devils (Revelation 16:14, 18:2).So what is your point exactly? Are you suggesting that the King James is incorrectly translating this word, and that Paul likewise incorrectly translated Genesis in his reference in 1 Corinthians? You haven't put forth any examples to show where (human) people are called spirits.
spirit is part of the definition .

point really is that physically dead people spirits \souls go to heaven
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

what is your view on unbelievers getting a physical body again on judgement day ? evidence for your view ?

(just guessing your opinion is people can't exist without a body.)
 

Rosenritter

New member
:( :chuckle:

soulsG5590 =
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit,

spirit is part of the definition .[/quote]

"Strong's concordance" is not a superior authority to scripture itself, such as Paul's own usage of the word. Do you have an example you can show from scriptural use?

point really is that physically dead people spirits \souls go to heaven
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

The translation you used there DOES have Jesus saying that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise. Unfortunately that mistranslation only makes Jesus into a lair. Jesus wasn't in Paradise during any part of that day. Peter clarified that the soul of Jesus was in hell (see Acts 2) and we know that later he ascended to heaven, but not until later in the day after he was resurrected.

The King James has a better translation of that same text, "today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Jesus still ascends to heaven (and paradise) on his schedule and the promise (decreed that day) is fulfilled on the normal schedule.

Luke 23:43 KJV
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It's "today shalt" not "today be" or "be today."

what is your view on unbelievers getting a physical body again on judgement day ? evidence for your view ?

(just guessing your opinion is people can't exist without a body.)

Good guess. I'll clarify?

1. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" (John 3:6) includes all men in Adam (1 Cor 15:45).

2. For purposes of discussion, I do not count "dissolved into constitute atoms" as "existence" any more than I would count a pound of flour and miscellaneous ingredients as the existence of a cake, much less would I consider dissolved carbohydrates and sugars and biological waste product as an existing "cake" after it was eaten and digested. Sorry for having to state what is probably obvious, but establishing that there is such a thing as "destruction" did come up on the Universalist forum.

3. Adam was made a living soul through the combination of dust and breath. We are composed of flesh and spirit. These are general terms for matter and spirit, and the human soul (person) simply does not operate without these elements in combination. For example, my computer has its own combination of dust and breath (silicon and power) and the machine cannot function without both operating in the right configuration.

Separate the power from a computer and you have a dead computer, not a "dead physical body of the computer" and a living computer that keeps on rolling somewhere in the invisible ether. Even the combination of hardware and power is nothing by itself, it still needs programming (maybe even call this spirit) or you've got an expensive humming "brick" of a machine. The programming cannot do anything unless it is rightly placed in its computer body.

4. And as for the resurrection, the faithful in Christ are specifically told that they must be changed to inherit this Kingdom. 1 Cor 15. I'll skip this mostly now...

5. And as for the resurrection of the wicked (I think this is your question) then yes, the wicked would also be physically raised on judgment day. Here's some highlights:

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...." includes those who shall awake to shame and contempt. It would be rather unusual to say that they awake out of the earth if there was no awakening out of the earth. Dust and earth are tangible symbols of physical presence which goes all the way back to the creation of Adam from dust in Genesis.

Acts 24:15 "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." Paul here lays down his faith without deception or deceit, and plainly says that the just and the unjust alike shall be raised. "Resurrection" is a physical thing. When the dead were raised by Jesus (or by others than Jesus) they were always raised physically, in the flesh. That is what the word "resurrection" means. If Jesus had dissolved into a spirit he wouldn't have been said to be resurrected. His body was missing. The Romans were unable to produce a body... and that absence of a body was the proof of resurrection that catapulted the Christian faith and the gospel.

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." ... Again, here, resurrection is portrayed as an innately physical act.

Job 19:25 -27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me" ... again, Job shows that the resurrection of the dead in that latter day before our Redeemer is physical, "in the flesh."

You might say that Isaiah and Job only speak of faithful believers... but the point is that there is no distinction between faithful and unfaithful in this aspect, that they shall be raised (as Paul says, "both the just and the unjust.") The distinction is that the faithful are changed to receive eternal life (1 Cor 15).

Revelation 20:13 "and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" Here the sea is listed alongside death and hell (which does cover all bases for those that believe you cannot be resurrected if you are cremated, lost at sea, or die in some other way that does not allow "proper" burial.) Would the sea be said to "give up its dead" if the dead still remained in the sea?

And for probably one of the best evidences of all for this question, Isaiah and the gospels:

Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Where are you going to get carcasses of men for that fire if you didn't physically raise the dead in actual physical bodies that become physical carcasses? What is the worm to feed upon? Jesus affirms that this passage in Isaiah is a reference to the hell fire of final judgment (see Mark 9:43-48). Floating spirit ghosts don't have carcasses!

Thus... the wicked are actually raised (in the flesh) for the final judgment.
 
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Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
3. Adam was made a living soul through the combination of dust and breath. We are composed of flesh and spirit. These are general terms for matter and spirit, and the human soul (person) simply does not operate without these elements in combination. For example, my computer has its own combination of dust and breath (silicon and power) and the machine cannot function without both operating in the right configuration.

Separate the power from a computer and you have a dead computer, not a "dead physical body of the computer" and a living computer that keeps on rolling somewhere in the invisible ether. Even the combination of hardware and power is nothing by itself, it still needs programming (maybe even call this spirit) or you've got an expensive humming "brick" of a machine. The programming cannot do anything unless it is rightly placed in its computer body.
But the logic of the software, exists even without computers or electricity at all. That logic can be written down, depicted, or signified, and its existence and reality do not depend upon hardware or computer memory. I believe our soul is individuated, and not just a force that is manipulated by the particular spatial geometry of our bodies, which only then produces who we are. Our logic exists apart from us, by parallel with software programming. The logic of the software exists whether or not it's recorded physically in some way. And when my body stops, my soul does not, my soul does not require my body, but I will be resurrected, and I will be transformed further into a new body, but my soul will still be me, even when my body is new. My soul has been new already, since I first believed in Christ Jesus. New heavens, new earth, and new people. We believers have already new souls. We are already, sort of citizens of the eternal kingdom. Because these souls are new. The bodies aren't invited. Paul said so. We get new bodies, to go along with the new souls, who have already been resurrected.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
The translation you used there DOES have Jesus saying that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise. Unfortunately that mistranslation only makes Jesus into a lair. Jesus wasn't in Paradise during any part of that day. Peter clarified that the soul of Jesus was in hell (see Acts 2) and we know that later he ascended to heaven, but not until later in the day after he was resurrected.
the criminal was with God that day
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.



Good guess. I'll clarify?
Spoiler

1. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" (John 3:6) includes all men in Adam (1 Cor 15:45).

2. For purposes of discussion, I do not count "dissolved into constitute atoms" as "existence" any more than I would count a pound of flour and miscellaneous ingredients as the existence of a cake, much less would I consider dissolved carbohydrates and sugars and biological waste product as an existing "cake" after it was eaten and digested. Sorry for having to state what is probably obvious, but establishing that there is such a thing as "destruction" did come up on the Universalist forum.

3. Adam was made a living soul through the combination of dust and breath. We are composed of flesh and spirit. These are general terms for matter and spirit, and the human soul (person) simply does not operate without these elements in combination. For example, my computer has its own combination of dust and breath (silicon and power) and the machine cannot function without both operating in the right configuration.

Separate the power from a computer and you have a dead computer, not a "dead physical body of the computer" and a living computer that keeps on rolling somewhere in the invisible ether. Even the combination of hardware and power is nothing by itself, it still needs programming (maybe even call this spirit) or you've got an expensive humming "brick" of a machine. The programming cannot do anything unless it is rightly placed in its computer body.

4. And as for the resurrection, the faithful in Christ are specifically told that they must be changed to inherit this Kingdom. 1 Cor 15. I'll skip this mostly now...

5. And as for the resurrection of the wicked (I think this is your question) then yes, the wicked would also be physically raised on judgment day. Here's some highlights:

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...." includes those who shall awake to shame and contempt. It would be rather unusual to say that they awake out of the earth if there was no awakening out of the earth. Dust and earth are tangible symbols of physical presence which goes all the way back to the creation of Adam from dust in Genesis.

Acts 24:15 "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." Paul here lays down his faith without deception or deceit, and plainly says that the just and the unjust alike shall be raised. "Resurrection" is a physical thing. When the dead were raised by Jesus (or by others than Jesus) they were always raised physically, in the flesh. That is what the word "resurrection" means. If Jesus had dissolved into a spirit he wouldn't have been said to be resurrected. His body was missing. The Romans were unable to produce a body... and that absence of a body was the proof of resurrection that catapulted the Christian faith and the gospel.

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." ... Again, here, resurrection is portrayed as an innately physical act.

Job 19:25 -27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me" ... again, Job shows that the resurrection of the dead in that latter day before our Redeemer is physical, "in the flesh."

You might say that Isaiah and Job only speak of faithful believers... but the point is that there is no distinction between faithful and unfaithful in this aspect, that they shall be raised (as Paul says, "both the just and the unjust.") The distinction is that the faithful are changed to receive eternal life (1 Cor 15).

Revelation 20:13 "and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" Here the sea is listed alongside death and hell (which does cover all bases for those that believe you cannot be resurrected if you are cremated, lost at sea, or die in some other way that does not allow "proper" burial.) Would the sea be said to "give up its dead" if the dead still remained in the sea?
raised imperishable
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

my point is could be just spirits \ souls or bodies either way , imperishable .

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.


And for probably one of the best evidences of all for this question, Isaiah and the gospels:

Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Where are you going to get carcasses of men for that fire if you didn't physically raise the dead in actual physical bodies that become physical carcasses? What is the worm to feed upon? Jesus affirms that this passage in Isaiah is a reference to the hell fire of final judgment (see Mark 9:43-48). Floating spirit ghosts don't have carcasses!

.


Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

Thus... the wicked are actually raised (in the flesh) for the final judgment

raised imperishable

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
 

Rosenritter

New member
the criminal was with God that day
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Way 2 Go, your translation above is wrong: it changes the meaning through incorrect grammar. The King James version (or Tyndale, or Bishops, Geneva, Douay-Rheims, ASV, RV, NASB, etc) translate it correctly

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

How does that (above) relate to our topic?

raised imperishable

Please read your own words. It says "RAISED" imperishable. Not "killed" imperishable. The dead have not been raised, that happens when Christ returns. Point, set, and match already.

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

Paul is speaking of the resurrection of the saints in the blessed first resurrection. Just checking, you do recognize that there is a first resurrection and a second resurrection, and that they are spoken of having different attributes?

my point is could be just spirits \ souls or bodies either way , imperishable .

But scripture does clarify that the dead are raised with bodies. Carcasses are the result when you slay someone that has physical form. Carcasses are burnt in the day of judgment in hell fire. So now we don't have to wonder.

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Can you explain how this parable relates to whether the wicked dead are physically raised or not?

Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

Again, can you explain how that passage relates to our topic?

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

Of the first resurrection, Way 2 Go. Paul isn't describing any aspect of the second resurrection. Stay in context please.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
sorry to everyone for being off topic

Way 2 Go, your translation above is wrong: it changes the meaning through incorrect grammar. The King James version (or Tyndale, or Bishops, Geneva, Douay-Rheims, ASV, RV, NASB, etc) translate it correctly

no
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

so simple a child old could understand it.

How does that (above) relate to our topic?
you said
Jesus wasn't in Paradise during any part of that day

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

there is only one God.
Please read your own words. It says "RAISED" imperishable. Not "killed" imperishable. The dead have not been raised, that happens when Christ returns. Point, set, and match already.
on judgement day the dead are raised imperishable
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

Paul is speaking of the resurrection of the saints in the blessed first resurrection. Just checking, you do recognize that there is a first resurrection and a second resurrection, and that they are spoken of having different attributes?

But scripture does clarify that the dead are raised with bodies. Carcasses are the result when you slay someone that has physical form. Carcasses are burnt in the day of judgment in hell fire. So now we don't have to wonder.
Can you explain how this parable relates to whether the wicked dead are physically raised or not?

:think: Death and Hades is a place for spirits

Death and Hades is a place for spirits which eventually give up their dead
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Of the first resurrection, Way 2 Go. Paul isn't describing any aspect of the second resurrection. Stay in context please
staying in context,
says
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.



could be just spirits \ souls or bodies either way , imperishable .
 
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Lon

Well-known member
That for His glory?

Nothing in the above paragraph is for God's glory.

And forbidden from searching it out? Seriously, AMR?
Insomuch as Matthew 5:45 and 1 Peter 2:7,8 God 'does' His work, yet it will affect people differently. God cannot apologize, for instance, in Matthew 13:24-13:30 for watering both weeds and tares. For one thing, they are hard to tell apart such that angels are forbidden from removing them. Water is good for both wheat and weeds, so God applies the same to ensure that those who are saved/to be saved are cared for. If you apply Calvinism or your own belief, you come up with scriptures that fit and make sense as well as ideas that come from it. In a nutshell, this is what Calvinists mean and what AMR said.
God's glory is manifested in all His attributes. All God's attributes inhere one another. There are no attributes elevated above another. God is His attributes. God is jealous about all His attributes (Nah. 1:2; Ex. 20:4-6).

How does God display His mercy unless there are the undeserving?
How is God's glory in His holy wrath towards sin made manifest unless there are those that deserve His holy wrath?
What God has revealed in Holy Writ is ours to know. When God shuts His mouth, so should we (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

Again, there's no "choice" involved if God intervenes to ensure that a person makes a "decision" for the good.
So take the fact that God knows. He has no desire that anyone should perish yet cannot desist in applying that which is good of Himself to all men, that some should be saved. We all know the way is narrow. We all know therefore, God is fully aware that what He is doing will not save all, but we ALSO know how He feels about it: He hates it. Ezekiel 18:32
Thank you.

So, the proposition, 'Christ did not die for all mankind', you admit, is not a constituent proposition of the gospel! And, of course, it necessarily follows (as, I think, I already mentioned) from what you admit, that to believe that proposition's contradictory, viz., the proposition that 'Christ died for all mankind', is not to contradict the gospel. That is, a person, elect or non-elect, can state, as loudly and as often as he/she wants to, that Christ died for all mankind, and, in doing so, he/she will never have contradicted the gospel.

It is clear, now, that when the Holy Spirit regenerates a person--thereby (as per Calvinism) causing that person to believe the gospel--He, in that act of regenerating, does not cause the person to believe the non-gospel proposition, 'Christ did not die for all mankind'; otherwise, every person who believes the gospel must believe, also, that 'Christ did not die for all mankind'. It's just a special, extra, optional thing that a few elites (yourself being one) will somehow come to believe, on your own, later on after you've already believed the gospel.

He did die for all mankind:
1) Not all, not even half are saved, agree? If agreed, what way then, did "Christ die for them?" Did He die to save all men (universal salvation)?
2) As with above, Christ died the Apostle Peter said, some will stumble and for some, He will be the Chief Cornerstone. The same act: different results. Our contention is God knew/knows already thus is purposeful in His actions. I try to use different language than most Calvinists (including AMR) but clearly, Christ died to save some and knew the way was narrow. 1 Corinthians 9:22
3) Scripture does not shy from "God hardened Pharoah's heart" but I'd argue grace and concern did so and God, I infer, lamented that there was no possible other way as well as 'so be it.' Judgement from God should never be seen apart from His mercy and remorse for 'no other way.' Scripture informs my inference, and I'm open to how I may have inferred incorrectly, but it looks solid and scriptural to me. In Him -Lon
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
According to Charles Spurgeon, Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.

Since Calvinism is the gospel, every person who does not believe Calvinism is a person who does not believe the gospel. And, every person who has never believed the gospel is a person who has never been saved. So, unless you have believed Calvinism, you have never been saved.

Wow! How sad!

Actually

The gospel is the gospel.

And if you want get prosey about it

The gospel is the gospel is the gospel!
 
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