God's Truth
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I have been explaining that to you all along.
Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.
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That was one funny movie!
Rosenritter
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No, you've been saying quite the opposite, that the resurrection of the unjust is to eternal life rather than eternal condemnation. If one has eternal life cannot die any more, but the wicked dead are raised to judgment and die the second time as well.
Luke 20:35-36 KJV
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Revelation 20:5-6 KJV
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
"The wicked are raised to eternal life?" I don't think so. Eternal life is a gift for those that believe on Christ, but the wicked shall perish and die the second death. GT, if you've come about and we see eye to eye on this then that is good (just say so?) but otherwise you should explain why you are saying that other than simply continually repeating an unsupported assertion.
John 3:16 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Perish is on one side, everlasting life is on the other. The wicked are raised to judgment and everlasting contempt and shall perish in the second death. Those raised in Christ are raised to everlasting life and shall be like the angels and shall never die any more. These are two extreme polar opposites: to assign eternal life to the wicked denies not only the words of Christ but the theme of the entire scripture.
Do you know that many saved Christians believe wicked live in burning hell fire for eternity?
of course they do.
Revelation 20:11-15 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I was talking to Rosen.
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Rosenritter
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I suspect that belief is the only reason why GT is arguing that the wicked are raised to eternal life.
Rosenritter
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... seems like a type of blindness: to somehow read a clear scripture that identifies death and say that this is everlasting life.
Now if that passage said "this is the second life" then I might understand his point. Unfortunately, it says absolutely the opposite of what he indicated.
@Bright Raven, do you have any passage that says that God gives eternal life to the wicked? Because we have quite a few scriptures that tell us that eternal life is only for those that believe in Christ, that is a gift, and that the wicked shall perish, be burnt up, become ashes, die the second death, be consumed as the fat of lambs, and so on and so forth.
Matthew 25:41 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:46 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Rosenritter
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Again... where do the wicked receive eternal life? The righteous are receiving eternal life in these passages, not the wicked. May I color the words for you please?
Matthew 25:46 KJV
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Notice that "everlasting punishment" is contrasted against "life eternal" with the word "but" telling us that they are opposites. Perhaps you have a translation somewhere that instead reads "And these shall go away into everlasting life; and the righteous into life eternal?"
Eternal punishment means exactly that. It does not mean snuffed out of existence in a brief moment of judgement.
Rosenritter
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Strange, Jonathan Edwards didn't seem to think so. He said that the annihilation of the wicked would constitute eternal punishment, and even used this in his address against Universal Redemption.
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id...&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false
Jonathan has quite a reputation as a "hell and brimstone" preacher, being perhaps best remembered for his sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." Mr. Edwards admits that annihilation is an everlasting punishment and satisfies the Scripture expressions.
If you will no longer be arguing that being everlastingly "snuffed out of existence" is a temporary thing, do you have any scripture that would state that the wicked are given everlasting life?
Is not one of the authors of the Bible, nor was he inspired by God to write what He wrote, and is therefore fallible in his doctrines. Which is why I don't really care about what some guy from 1700 years after Paul and the Twelve has to say.
You need to pay closer attention to what is said, and how it is said.
No longer existing is permanent, yes, but that wasn't the thrust of what I said.
I said the judgment itself, the action of being snuffed out, is brief.
That, Rosey, is a short judgment that has eternal consequences. It is not an eternal punishment, it is not eternal hellfire.
Rosenritter
New member
May I also remind you that you are not one of the authors of the Bible, dear JRightly? The infallible bible does say that only the righteous receive eternal life, but that the fate of the wicked is eternal punishment, to perish and be burnt up and to be no more. Johnathan Edwards is an example that even a hostile witness recognizes that "being snuffed out" does constitute eternal punishment according to scripture.
Eternal punishment does include being snuffed out of existence in a brief moment of judgment, but if the snuffing out was temporary then the punishment wouldn't be eternal or everlasting. See Jonathan Edwards above.
So where is the point of confusion (disagreement?) Are you perhaps confusing the words "punishment" and "judgment?" The punishment of sin is the wages of sin, also known as death. The punishment of death is everlasting. The gift of God is eternal life. The gift of life is everlasting.
Or are you somehow proceeding on an assumption that being cast into a fire grants life? That sounds somewhat crazy, yet somehow I have the impression that's what's going on here.
I'm simply following what scripture says, which describes a different definition of "life," which you seem to have confused with something else
We are currently alive, here on this earth. We have life in our bodies.
When we die, however, we are both dead and alive. Our bodies, which are part of us, are dead, yet we are still alive, because we are more than just our bodies. Our soul/spirit is alive, yet our body is dead.
Death is just separation.
Physical death is separation of our body and soul/spirit. So, in a sense, those who are in hell currently (and they are indeed in hell, not in "soul-sleep") are dead, as they are physically dead, But they are also still living (as Jesus described those who were in Abraham's bosom which is one of the places in hell, separated from what we call Hades, where the righteous would go upon death to await the death of the High Priest (note: a place of refuge, see cities of refuge in The Law in the Old Testament)), very much aware of their situation.
Spiritual death, on the other hand, is separation from God. If someone is dead spiritually, they have been separated from God (this is driven home by the wording used to described what Christ's DBR accomplished, a "reconciling" of the world, which means to restore friendly relations between).
God told Adam that he was not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (hereafter called simply, "the Tree", for simplicity's sake), "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." No, the day they ate of it, Adam and Eve didn't die (physically, at least), they didn't cease to exist, they weren't snuffed out. They WERE, however, removed from God's presence. This is why death is separation, and not a cessation of existence.
If we use THAT standard, that "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" means separation from God, reading the Bible becomes easier, and it is easier to understand.
So now that we understand that death is only separation, and not cessation of existence or soul-sleep, let's look at the Biblical claim that the wicked receive eternal punishment, while the righteous receive eternal life. The punishment here is eternal separation from God, death.
The alternative is eternal life, life meaning an association or union (to God).
So no, I may not be inspired, nor do I claim to be, but I am only putting forth what the Bible says.
I let the Bible speak for itself, rather than relying on man's interpretation.
Just one more thought:
If you lose some skin cells from your body, or lose a finger or leg, that piece of you was you, but now it is dead, and no longer you. It was separated from you.
Simple explained.
But not correct.
God's Truth
New member
They will go to a life of eternal condemnation.
You know the scriptures where Jesus calls living humans 'dead'?
It is kind of like that, living but dead.
They are raised immortal. So how can their immortal bodies die?
Death will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.
I have listened intently to other people's argument on this topic, and I have not been convinced that the wicked dead will not raise immortal too but to a suffering existence in the lake of fire.
As I was trying to get you to see before was that the wicked wake to everlasting contempt, and that waking is living.