Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

[meshak]

You may repeat the question, but I will give you the same answer.

Eternal life is the gift of God, but only for those that believe. If you cast a mortal man into a consuming fire, even if you were to assume they were originally in perfect health in the peak of physical condition, how long would you expect them to be able to live? In the cases when men have used fire as a means of execution the victims do not live long, and when fire consumes the corpses they are converted into ash.

What has been eternally "burnt up" can not "burn on" eternally.

But to turn your original question around, assuming that God was to burn people or angels in hell fire eternally what would be the point and what purpose would it serve?

thanks,

I just wanted to know if your reasoning is contextual with God is love.

I agree with you.

It is common belief of the majority mainstream churches that all wicked ones die in hell fire for eternity.

I stand corrected of my statement that only the righteous will be resurrected.

thank you.

blessings.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus says if any is willing to obey they will know.

How do you get that if any are willing they will know God is a tyrant?

Do you really think that is what Jesus says?

I don't think you are reading the words from the post correctly.

 

[God's Truth]

I don't think you are reading the words from the post correctly.

I am responding to what nikolai_42 is saying to me about people obeying without faith will think God is a tyrant. He is wrong, because no one would feel that way, for Jesus says those who 'willing' obey will find out, have faith.

 

[God's Truth]

You may repeat the question, but I will give you the same answer.

Eternal life is the gift of God, but only for those that believe. If you cast a mortal man into a consuming fire, even if you were to assume they were originally in perfect health in the peak of physical condition, how long would you expect them to be able to live? In the cases when men have used fire as a means of execution the victims do not live long, and when fire consumes the corpses they are converted into ash.

What has been eternally "burnt up" can not "burn on" eternally.

But to turn your original question around, assuming that God was to burn people or angels in hell fire eternally what would be the point and what purpose would it serve?

When God raises all to life at the resurrection, they will all be raised immortal.

 

[Rosenritter]

I am responding to what nikolai_42 is saying to me about people obeying without faith will think God is a tyrant. He is wrong, because no one would feel that way, for Jesus says those who 'willing' obey will find out, have faith.

I already disagreed with Nikolai as to whether obeying without faith necessitated "God is a tyrant." But I think we now generally agree that it might lead to that perception... but not necessarily. It can be a stepping stone or a schoolmaster that can lead into faith.

1 John 4:17-18 KJV
(17) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Obedience from fear (such as for fear of punishment) is not made perfect in love.

 

[Rosenritter]

When God raises all to life at the resurrection, they will all be raised immortal.

That would be incorrect. Everlasting life is life without an end, and death is the opposite of life.

Romans 6:21-23 KJV
(21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
(22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The blessed saints of the first resurrection (on whom the second death has no power) are raised to immortality at Christ's return (see 1 Cor 15) and we may presume that those who are later raised and who pass into the Holy City to partake of the tree of life and living waters will live for ever. No such promise is given to the wicked who shall be destroyed and perish.

I don't suppose you have a passage that shows the dead of the second resurrection being raised immortal before the judgment? I don't think so.

 

[God's Truth]

That would be incorrect. Everlasting life is life without an end, and death is the opposite of life.

Romans 6:21-23 KJV
(21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
(22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The blessed saints of the first resurrection (on whom the second death has no power) are raised to immortality at Christ's return (see 1 Cor 15) and we may presume that those who are later raised and who pass into the Holy City to partake of the tree of life and living waters will live for ever. No such promise is given to the wicked who shall be destroyed and perish.

I don't suppose you have a passage that shows the dead of the second resurrection being raised immortal before the judgment? I don't think so.

We are all raised immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Rosenritter]

We are all raised immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Cor 15:37 seems rather irrelevant to the topic at hand, but when you read Daniel 12:2, did you not notice that only some of those awake to everlasting life? The other half do not awake to everlasting life. You are disproved by your own proof scripture.

Or were you reading that as if it said, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, and the others to everlasting life?"

 

[God's Truth]

1 Cor 15:37 seems rather irrelevant to the topic at hand, but when you read Daniel 12:2, did you not notice that only some of those awake to everlasting life? The other half do not awake to everlasting life. You are disproved by your own proof scripture.

They woke to everlasting contempt.

Or were you reading that as if it said, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, and the others to everlasting life?"

You don't see what it says?

 

[ttruscott]

What Election is if God doesn't have foreknowledge. Is there such an Elect in the case that God doesn't have foreknowledge?

No Elect can exist if God doesn't have the ability to foresee. That's the dependence! To put it another way, such an Elect won't exist if God doesn't have the foreknowledge!

How to have elect without foreknowledge?
IF HE created us all together before HE created the physical universe and with a free will able to choose to accept HIM as our GOD and HIS Son as our saviour from all sin and

IF HE promised that all who put their faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and HIS Son as our saviour by faith, that is by an unproven hope, would be chosen to be HIS bride in heaven, and

IF some DID choose to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and
IF HE did then choose them to be HIS Bride in heaven, passing over those who put their faith in HIS being a false god and a liar, rejecting HIM as GOD,

THEN, when some of the elect (elect means to choose out) rebelled against HIM and became sinful (probably over HIS call to come out from among the demonic non-elect so they could be damned) HE sowed his sinful elect into the world Matt 13:36-39, predestined to end in heaven as HIS bride and with lives predetermined to be the most perfect lives for each sinful elect to live to bring them to redemption the best way possible.

WE chose our eternal fates. HE chose the perfect predetermined of HIS elect's lives to fulfill HIS predestination of the fulfillment of HIS election promise to HIS sinful elect.

HIS foreknowledge of our election goes before our conception but NOT before our creation or our free will decision to accept HIM as our GOD or we get into the tangled mess of modern theology.

 

[Right Divider]

It means trust God and do what He says to do, even if you don't understand why, like humble yourself and repent.

Yes, yes... we know... you claim to be the only one doing that.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, yes... we know... you claim to be the only one doing that.

Who said I am the only one doing it? I am one of the few preaching it. If you are doing it, then why aren't you preaching it? If anyone obeys God, they want others to know the power in it.

 

[Town Heretic]

He came to his own conclusions that nobody is obliged to observe as sacrosanct. JW's have their own belief system, much like Mormons, SDA's, Pentecostals, Methodists, Baptists etc etc etc.

:think: I'm not so sure about the Methodists though.

They may be largely winging it. oly:

 

[Rosenritter]

They woke to everlasting contempt.

You don't see what it says?

Contempt is not life, the context of the passage uses it as the opposite of life. I see what is is saying quite clearly, but I don't see how you can justify re-translating the word "contempt" as "life."

 

[God's Truth]

Contempt is not life, the context of the passage uses it as the opposite of life. I see what is is saying quite clearly, but I don't see how you can justify re-translating the word "contempt" as "life."

Read all the words. They WOKE up to EVERLASTING contempt.

 

[Rosenritter]

Read all the words. They WOKE up to EVERLASTING contempt.

Which is the opposite of everlasting life. You keep shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[God's Truth]

Which is the opposite of everlasting life. You keep shooting yourself in the foot.

Waking up isn't staying dead.

 

[meshak]

It seems miscommunication is going on.

 

[Idolater]

[Clavinism's founder John Clavin] came to his own conclusions that nobody is obliged to observe as sacrosanct. JW's have their own belief system, much like Mormons, SDA's, Pentecostals, Methodists, Baptists etc etc etc.

Exactly. There're really only two major ecclesial community traditions that even claim to be teaching exclusively what the Apostles themselves taught and approved, and that only---in contrast to anybody else's interpretations; it's the Orthodox, and the Catholic, bishops.

Neither Catholic nor Orthodox bishops are claiming to be interpreters themselves, they are relaying what the Apostles taught and approved, and the Apostles are the ones who were given both the Spirit of truth, and Christ's own teaching authority, in matters of faith and morals.

All the Clavinists by now itt have agreed that Clavinism isn't the Gospel, and that salvation depends upon faith alone (Sola Fide) in the Gospel alone (Solum Evangelium), and not upon subscription to Clavinism. The Catholic bishops believe and teach the same thing, as do the Open View Dispensationalists here.

Sola Fide in Solum Evangelium is the common denominator.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Exactly. There're really only two major ecclesial community traditions that even claim to be teaching exclusively what the Apostles themselves taught and approved, and that only---in contrast to anybody else's interpretations; it's the Orthodox, and the Catholic, bishops.

Neither Catholic nor Orthodox bishops are claiming to be interpreters themselves, they are relaying what the Apostles taught and approved, and the Apostles are the ones who were given both the Spirit of truth, and Christ's own teaching authority, in matters of faith and morals.

All the Clavinists by now itt have agreed that Clavinism isn't the Gospel, and that salvation depends upon faith alone (Sola Fide) in the Gospel alone (Solum Evangelium), and not upon subscription to Clavinism. The Catholic bishops believe and teach the same thing, as do the Open View Dispensationalists here.

Sola Fide in Solum Evangelium is the common denominator.

A lot of the early church founders didn't seem to go along with any of the later "orthodoxy" one way or another.