Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

[Right Divider]

Roman Catholic is fine. 99% of the Catholic Church is Roman Catholic, but 'Roman' is not what makes the Church authentic. If the English didn't appropriate 'episcopal' for themselves, that would otherwise be fine too, since that's largely an accurate description of this school of theological thought. The Catholic bishops and the Orthodox bishops all descend from the Apostles, through the valid celebration of the sacrament of Holy Orders. (The Orthodox I believe call it something else, but it's the same thing.) The difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is political, with the former receiving the supreme pastorate of Peter in Rome (the Antiochan church is also a Petrine see), while the Orthodox believe that each patriarch (the archbishop of the Roman diocese being one of them) is autocephalous.

Since the primacy of Peter's pastorate in Rome was considered 'first among equals' without any serious dispute for about 1000 years, that is one reason why I settled on Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy, with both of them tracing their roots back all the way to Pentecost in AD 33 (or thereabouts). It is the original Church, in my estimation.

Your bogus authority has tried to make this fairy tale come true, but the chief apostle for today is Paul and not Peter.

Your estimation is WAY OFF.

 

[Rosenritter]

What exists, exists because God created it.
Time is a human construct, it is not something within which God is bound.

Genesis 1:1 KJV
(1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

"The beginning" is a time reference. Time was before the creation. Time is a measure between events, not a thing that is made. John uses the same reference to the beginning, but there is no reference to God creating time.

 

[Rosenritter]

Your bogus authority has tried to make this fairy tale come true, but the chief apostle for today is Paul and not Peter.

Your estimation is WAY OFF.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 KJV
(12) Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
(13) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[MennoSota]

Proof by repeated assertion is a fallacy. Either defend your position or stop asserting it without evidence.

I said that you cannot assert that God is outside of time ONLY by using Scripture.

It is your responsibility to show that you can do so.

Was God there when He created all things? Yes or No?
Time is a construct humans have created in order to track their existence.
What does Exodus 3:14 tell us? What does "I AM" mean? When Jesus declared "Before Abraham was, I AM," what was he saying about God?
The evidence is right there.
It is interesting to me as I watch you attempt to confine God in your life. Why do you feel you need to control God?

 

[Idolater]

Your bogus authority has tried to make this fairy tale come true, but the chief apostle for today is Paul and not Peter.

OK. Which pastorate is Paul's? Which bishop today is the successor of Paul? Which pastorate is the Pauline see? We know that Peter was the pastor of Antioch, and then of Rome also. Which office is Paul's, and who sits now in Paul's chair?

I know your answer before you give it. It's Paul's epistles. Those writings themselves are your supreme pastor, even though the thought that some papers could pastor a flock, is ridiculous on its face; that, nonetheless, is your answer.

Your estimation is WAY OFF.

Your theological position is Dispensationalism. So of course to you, my estimation is way off, just like to me, yours is. That's what we're arguing about here. Whose position is the truth?

 

[Right Divider]

OK. Which pastorate is Paul's? Which bishop today is the successor of Paul? Which pastorate is the Pauline see? We know that Peter was the pastor of Antioch, and then of Rome also. Which office is Paul's, and who sits now in Paul's chair?

:mock: "Peter was the pastor of Antioch"

Seriously man, where do you get this tripe? There is NO such history.

Paul is the sole apostle to which God delivered the gospel of the grace of God and we are to follow HIM as HE follows Christ.

1Co 11:1 KJV Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.​

I know your answer before you give it. It's Paul's epistles. Those writings themselves are your supreme pastor, even though the thought that some papers could pastor a flock, is ridiculous on its face; that, nonetheless, is your answer.
Your theological position is Dispensationalism. So of course to you, my estimation is way off, just like to me, yours is. That's what we're arguing about here. Whose position is the truth?

The ENTIRE Bible is any believer's supreme authority because it is GOD BREATHED.

The BIBLE is the TRUTH .... it is GOD'S TRUTH, which you reject. You have placed your "Bible interpreters" in a position ABOVE that of the BIBLE.

You are a Cathoholic and need help.

 

[JudgeRightly]

OK. Which pastorate is Paul's?

None.

Which bishop today is the successor of Paul?

There is no successor to Paul, because Paul is a member of the Body of Christ, who is the HEAD.

Unless you think that someone should take Christ's place...

Which pastorate is the Pauline see?

None.

We know that Peter was the pastor of Antioch, and then of Rome also.

See RD's response.

Which office is Paul's, and who sits now in Paul's chair?

None, and no one, because Paul is a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, who is the HEAD.

I know your answer before you give it.

No, you don't.

It's Paul's epistles.

Told you. Not even close.

Those writings themselves are your supreme pastor, even though the thought that some papers could pastor a flock, is ridiculous on its face;

False premise.

that, nonetheless, is your answer.

Nope. It isn't.

Your theological position is Dispensationalism.

Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, to be sure.

So of course to you, my estimation is way off,

It's not just "off." It's incorrect.

just like to me, yours is.

Actually, ours is spot on.

You misinterpret the Bible because you're told what to believe by the Bishops, instead of just letting Scripture speak for itself.

That's what we're arguing about here. Whose position is the truth?

Here's how to know:

Read the Bible AS IS, without trying to interpret it in any way.

 

[Rosenritter]

Was God there when He created all things? Yes or No?
Time is a construct humans have created in order to track their existence.
What does Exodus 3:14 tell us? What does "I AM" mean? When Jesus declared "Before Abraham was, I AM," what was he saying about God?
The evidence is right there.
It is interesting to me as I watch you attempt to confine God in your life. Why do you feel you need to control God?

Time is not a construct man created; but God did make the creation before man existed so that the man could measure time. Here in Genesis we see that time and its measure proceeded man.

Genesis 1:5 KJV And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1:14 KJV And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

 

[meshak]

There is more than one variety of Catholic. The town where I live right now has some non-Roman Catholic church buildings.



I think most people assume "Roman Catholic" when they hear "Catholic" ... did you mean to say you were Roman Catholic or a generic Catholic? If Roman Catholic, would "Roman Catholic" be OK or is there a less lengthy term that can be used?

thanks. let me ask you one more thing.

Do you believe that non-believers or wicked ones will be burned in hell for eternity?

 

[God's Truth]

You've not defined the gospel other than to say we have to obey Jesus. Jesus clearly tells us to do many things (including cut off hands, gouge out eyes if they cause us to sin)

People who obey Jesus don't do that because they stop sinning with their eyes and hands.

and He also says that we are His disciples if we do whatever He commands. The point is that if someone is trying to stop sinning but can't, you've condemned that person to live with their own wretched heart. It's like telling a drunk to stop drinking. Okay. That's right. But they are so affected by drink that they can't do it on their own.

If someone obeys Jesus, he will give them the Holy Spirit, it is a time of refreshing, he might even take your drinking desire immediately away from you.

As you rightly point out, they need an internal change. But you have told them the good news is that they have to change their hearts and they have to obey Jesus? Jesus never came against the 10 commandments.

Jesus gave new commandments.

So someone who breaks any of those is guilty. Any of them. If someone can't stop stealing, then cutting off their hands certainly will keep them from stealing.

Are you trying to mock Jesus? Obey by stop stealing. Is is easier for you to cut off your hand? Haven't you stop any sin for Jesus? It isn't hard.

But (again, as you point out) there's a heart problem. They are still coveting. So what do you do with the heart? How do they change their own heart? It's all a heart issue. None of it is physical. And if obedience is the gospel, then only obedience is its fulfillment. And if that's the case, then repentance can't be part of the gospel - it just keeps someone from losing it.

You have to admit you are a sinner, you have to repent. There is no getting out of it. If you don't do it then you won't be saved. Jesus says repent or perish.

Because someone who is trying to fulfill the commandments is trying to fulfill the gospel. That's the upshot of what you are saying. Jesus even commended the rich young ruler for his obedience but the man still failed.

He failed because he loved his money more than God. We have to love God more than anything or anyone.

The woman caught in adultery failed and did not meet up to the gospel. She didn't even repent - Jesus just forgave her outright.

Jesus told her to stop sinning.

John 8:11 No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

I don't see this obedience as being the gospel. It is certainly a fruit of it, but if John is right, it comes from being a new creature in Christ. So obedience is not the gospel. I John 2:3 says it is evidence, not the gospel itself. The difference is huge. Where obedience is said to be the gospel, God is seen as a taskmaster and a tyrant. Where obedience is the fruit, He is seen to be merciful and compassionate and obedience is a joyful act (all of grace).

Jesus tells us how to make our heart right.

 

[Rosenritter]

thanks. let me ask you one more thing.

Do you believe that non-believers or wicked ones will be burned in hell for eternity?

I believe that the wicked men and angels will be burnt up in the final judgment. This fire consumes the wicked leaving them neither root nor branch; they never shall be any more.

Spoiler

Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Spoiler

Ezekiel 28:14-19 KJV
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Spoiler

Matthew 3:10-12 KJV
(10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

[meshak]

I believe that the wicked men and angels will be burnt up in the final judgment. This fire consumes the wicked leaving them neither root nor branch; they never shall be any more.

Spoiler

Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Spoiler

Ezekiel 28:14-19 KJV
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

So you don't believe they will be burned in the hell fire eternity?

 

[God's Truth]

If all we have are different acceptable interpretations of scripture, then let's just pack it all up and go home. There is no truth there.

Never ever is the way about not having to obey. That comes from a misunderstanding of the scriptures.

 

[7djengo7]

It matters not whether I am a Calvinist or Baptist, etc. I can say this now that I am saved and assured of the same. Before that moment, over 50 years ago, I could not say this, for I certainly did not want it and hated God with every breath I drew.


All covenanted members of the church militant are presumed to be among the elect. This is right and proper to assume absent evidence to the contrary.

If you have a point you are wanting to make, rather than "twenty-questions", or Whack-A-Mole, it would further the discussion to just make your point.

AMR

I had asked you whether or not there are any persons whom you can look in the eye and say to them something like, "Though Jesus does not love everybody, and though He did not die for everybody, yet, I can tell you that Jesus loves you, and that He died for you. You, indeed, are one of the ones for whom He died."

So far, of course, you have not dared answer my yes-or-no question.

But, here's something interesting that you wrote, elsewhere (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3542-Ye-Must-Be-Born-Again):

Resist vain speculation (2 Timothy 2:23). Let's leave that which is not revealed by God in Scripture, e.g., exactly who is or who is not elect, to God alone. When God shuts His mouth, so should we.

You say, here, loudly and clearly, that it would be vain speculation for you to declare that so-and-so is elect. Perhaps this is why you have been silent to my question? For, if you state that there are, in fact, particular persons to whom you would be ready, willing, and able to declare, "Jesus loves you, and He died for you," then you, as a Calvinist, will be necessarily implying that those persons are persons whom you consider to be elect, since, as per Calvinism, the only persons whom Jesus loves, and died for, are the elect. And, since, as you say, God, in Scripture, did not reveal who is elect, then, He did not, in Scripture, reveal that those, particular persons are elect. You, evidently, think that it would be vain speculation to declare that Mr. So-and-so is elect.

And, yet, what do you think you are doing whenever you partake of the Lord's Supper at the same table with other persons? Are you not, therein, necessarily implying, to them, as well as to others, that you consider the other communicants to be persons whom Jesus loves, and persons for whom Jesus died--and thus, elect persons?

Not only that, but when you state that it is vain speculation to say that someone is elect, since it is not revealed, in Scripture, that he or she is elect, you are necessarily implying that it is vain speculation for you to state, about yourself, that you are elect!

And yet, since you claim that you have been justified, you are necessarily implying that you are elect, so that, in claiming that you are justified, you are engaging in vain speculation.

So, according to Ask Mr. Religion, it is "right and proper to assume absent evidence to the contrary" that someone is elect, while it is, also, vain speculation to say that he/she is elect.

Next time you think to tell someone that you are elect (and/or anything else that necessarily implies election), perhaps you should, instead, take your own advice, and shut your mouth?

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, yes... we know... you claim to be the only one doing that.

It means trust God and do what He says to do, even if you don't understand why, like humble yourself and repent.

 

[Rosenritter]

So you don't believe they will be burned in the hell fire eternally?

You may repeat the question, but I will give you the same answer.

Eternal life is the gift of God, but only for those that believe. If you cast a mortal man into a consuming fire, even if you were to assume they were originally in perfect health in the peak of physical condition, how long would you expect them to be able to live? In the cases when men have used fire as a means of execution the victims do not live long, and when fire consumes the corpses they are converted into ash.

What has been eternally "burnt up" can not "burn on" eternally.

But to turn your original question around, assuming that God was to burn people or angels in hell fire eternally what would be the point and what purpose would it serve?

 

[God's Truth]

So it seems he was saying that God wrote people in the book of life who cannot be saved that God does not want to save and wills not to save? And this blotting out happens... when? I'm seeing a thread here that starts to unravel this whole thing if we continue.

Where do you get they all cannot obey?

 

[God's Truth]

Not correct in whole: someone who is brought to faith will gladly obey, but one who is brought to faith by obedience is still brought to faith. Faith does not have a tyrant for a master.

Perhaps you meant to say (with which I would agree) that obedience does not necessarily lead to faith. One may obey a tyrant out of fear and one may obey a master out of love. The former is obedience without faith and the latter is obedience in faith.

Jesus says if any is willing to obey they will know.

How do you get that if any are willing they will know God is a tyrant?

Do you really think that is what Jesus says?

 

[Rosenritter]

So it seems he was saying that God wrote people in the book of life who cannot be saved that God does not want to save and wills not to save? And this blotting out happens... when? I'm seeing a thread here that starts to unravel this whole thing if we continue.

Where do you get they all cannot obey?

Sorry, I have no idea what you are referring to right now. If it helps the "he" I was referring to was referring to the person you were responding to: nikolai_42 ..

 

[God's Truth]

If, as Moses said, God already wrote this book, then it is complete. He didn't say God was writing it. So unless there is evidence of anyone being added in scripture, I can't see holding that they can.



My response is the same as it was to GT : this is a book of remembrance, not what was called the book of life. It was written after Moses' day (when Moses spoke of a book already written) so it couldn't have been the same book. The book of life seems to be referred to as "the book" repeatedly.

The book of remembrance is a book of life.

Malachi 3:16-17
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.