nikolai_42
Well-known member
And you have basically said it's "Obey Jesus". What about the one who fails miserably at that - all the while trying and wanting to please Him so? Where's the gospel for that person?
Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.
- Thread starter 7djengo7
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And you have basically said it's "Obey Jesus". What about the one who fails miserably at that - all the while trying and wanting to please Him so? Where's the gospel for that person?
God's Truth
New member
It has always been about obeying God.
Jesus tells us how to be the one who does please him.
It is a manual for salvation.
Follow the Way.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So the response to such a person is "keep trying? Does that mean that if they keep sinning to start hacking off limbs and gouging out eyes? You've told this person that they have to change their own heart since God won't do it for them...and so when they can't do that, do they cut out their own heart? Things are not looking good or hopeful for the one who can't measure up...
God's Truth
New member
No, the person has to do what Jesus says.
They have to humble themselves and admit they are a sinner, they need to repent of their sins.
They can start there.
So you can't obey Jesus by not sinning with your hands and eyes but you can obey by cutting off your limbs and gouging your eyes?
It is easy and light. That is what Jesus says. You are making it ridiculous to claim a person can obey Jesus and cut off their limbs but they can't obey by humbling themselves and repent of their sins, and forgive those who sinned against them?
So you are claiming a person can obey and cut of their limbs but they cannot obey and bring themselves to repent of their sins?
ttruscott
Well-known member
Have you ever run across any Church that claimed, "OUR understanding of theology is NOT what is taught in scripture?" ??
So what do Calvinists mean every time they assert this truism? They mean (and you know it) that all other Churches miss the mark in their definitions of the truth as UNBIBLICAL! I think they teach a blasphemous interpretation of scripture but refuse to consider correction because they know that their Calvinism IS scripture, a RE-STATEMENT OF SCRIPTURE ! and what it teaches. The hubris is blinding!
To be fair, I have met some humble Calvinists who know that their Calvinism is their own interpretation (or acceptance of an interpretation) of Scripture as they see fit and offer it for consideration.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
You've not defined the gospel other than to say we have to obey Jesus. Jesus clearly tells us to do many things (including cut off hands, gouge out eyes if they cause us to sin) and He also says that we are His disciples if we do whatever He commands. The point is that if someone is trying to stop sinning but can't, you've condemned that person to live with their own wretched heart. It's like telling a drunk to stop drinking. Okay. That's right. But they are so affected by drink that they can't do it on their own. As you rightly point out, they need an internal change. But you have told them the good news is that they have to change their hearts and they have to obey Jesus? Jesus never came against the 10 commandments. So someone who breaks any of those is guilty. Any of them. If someone can't stop stealing, then cutting off their hands certainly will keep them from stealing. But (again, as you point out) there's a heart problem. They are still coveting. So what do you do with the heart? How do they change their own heart? It's all a heart issue. None of it is physical. And if obedience is the gospel, then only obedience is its fulfillment. And if that's the case, then repentance can't be part of the gospel - it just keeps someone from losing it. Because someone who is trying to fulfill the commandments is trying to fulfill the gospel. That's the upshot of what you are saying. Jesus even commended the rich young ruler for his obedience but the man still failed. The woman caught in adultery failed and did not meet up to the gospel. She didn't even repent - Jesus just forgave her outright.
I don't see this obedience as being the gospel. It is certainly a fruit of it, but if John is right, it comes from being a new creature in Christ. So obedience is not the gospel. I John 2:3 says it is evidence, not the gospel itself. The difference is huge. Where obedience is said to be the gospel, God is seen as a taskmaster and a tyrant. Where obedience is the fruit, He is seen to be merciful and compassionate and obedience is a joyful act (all of grace).
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If all we have are different acceptable interpretations of scripture, then let's just pack it all up and go home. There is no truth there.
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, yes... we know... you claim to be the only one doing that.
Rosenritter
New member
I was thinking that a typo had gotten embedded in your spell-check dictionary and propagated itself with auto-correct.
Rosenritter
New member
It doesn't say it is finished being written: the "blotting out" implies the opposite. If you are an author and you have written a book and it is finished, that means there is no more changes. And most especially, names cannot be written in which do not yet exist.
Besides this, I had left this passage our on purpose but since someone already posted it, again:
Malachi 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
(17) And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
The book is a figure, an analogy. It is not a literal book, so an argument that this might be a "different book" falls short of the mark. Names are being added to those whom the Lord will spare.
Rosenritter
New member
So it seems he was saying that God wrote people in the book of life who cannot be saved that God does not want to save and wills not to save? And this blotting out happens... when? I'm seeing a thread here that starts to unravel this whole thing if we continue.
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Rosenritter
New member
Not correct in whole: someone who is brought to faith will gladly obey, but one who is brought to faith by obedience is still brought to faith. Faith does not have a tyrant for a master.
Perhaps you meant to say (with which I would agree) that obedience does not necessarily lead to faith. One may obey a tyrant out of fear and one may obey a master out of love. The former is obedience without faith and the latter is obedience in faith.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If, as Moses said, God already wrote this book, then it is complete. He didn't say God was writing it. So unless there is evidence of anyone being added in scripture, I can't see holding that they can.
My response is the same as it was to GT : this is a book of remembrance, not what was called the book of life. It was written after Moses' day (when Moses spoke of a book already written) so it couldn't have been the same book. The book of life seems to be referred to as "the book" repeatedly.
Why don't you just read the Bible and look for the term book of Life of the Lamb. Then come back to tell us what it is in your opinion.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Broadly speaking, I think I agree with you. I'm finding myself somewhat combative (and hasty) today - and I have other things to tend to so I may just have to leave it at that and hopefully pick things up later.
What Election is if God doesn't have foreknowledge. Is there such an Elect in the case that God doesn't have foreknowledge?
No Elect can exist if God doesn't have the ability to foresee. That's the dependence! To put it another way, such an Elect won't exist if God doesn't have the foreknowledge!
nikolai_42
Well-known member
To be more specific, I'm asking how God knew who would be saved? You used "knew" in the sense that God saw something (ahead of time) and learned it that way. How did He know all this about individuals?
God has an Elect, do you agree? Are you advocating that some of this Elect isn't saved?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Not at all. I'm simply asking how God knew...