Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

God's Truth

New member
Calvinism is false. The scriptures plainly say that Jesus died for all, and whomever, and for everyone.

What makes people different is that some love darkness and others love light.

God doesn't make these people love darkness over light, and make others choose light over darkness; in fact, if you find that you are one who is an outsider, Jesus tells you how to be like a lamb.

If it were not up to us, then Jesus would not tell us what to do to change and get saved.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
If you would like to believe that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, then Clavinism cannot stop you from doing that. The Clavinists want to argue that if you hear the Gospel, and do not believe it, then it is because you are rotten to the core and would never want to believe it on your own. To Clavinists, it requires a miracle for you to want to believe the Gospel in the first place.


Cliff or Andrew?

:think:

or this guy?
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Rosenritter

New member
I do consider today's Arminians confused and denying themselves of the full measure of blessedness that comes from the doctrines of grace. That does not unilaterally place them all outside the faith.

Clearly my answer to your question is "No." The same could be said of Calvinists, for not all that profess Calvinism are automatically assumed to be saved.

So some Calvinists might be saved, and some Arminians might be saved. Does it stop there?
 

Rosenritter

New member
...I again find myself concerned for their souls...


I, for one, do not understand how any Calvinist can fancy such concern to be at all consistent with Calvinism. If I am not mistaken, according to Calvinism, God does not love all mankind; there are some persons--perhaps the vast majority of mankind--whom God does not love. God does not love these people, so, how much sense would it make to say that God is "concerned for their souls"? None. God is not concerned for their unfathomably dismal prospect of a future in endless, fiery torment; nay, according to Calvinism, He predestinated them to that horrific eschatological plight, according to His good pleasure. He is pleased with, rather than sorrowful over, the prospect of their horror and torment. And yet, Calvinists come along and claim that they, themselves, have a sorrowful heart for the lost. Now, if I'm not mistaken, according to Calvinism, there is no warrant to say to the lost, indiscriminately, "Jesus loves you, and He died for you," since the Calvinist knows not (and avows that he knows not) the status of the individual. Is this or that lost guy one of God's elect, or is he one of the non-elect, the eternally reprobate? The Calvinist claims not to know either way, and so, since he knows not, he doesn't want to risk affirming falsehood to a non-elect guy: "Hey, you. Jesus loves you, and He died for you!"

But, what seems, to me, a deeper question, here, is, why should the Calvinist even be concerned, and even the least bit moved with passion and sorrow over the souls of those whom, according to Calvinism, Jesus, Himself, does not even love or sorrow over? Why should the Calvinist be moved with any pity at all over the soul's plight whom Calvinism's Jesus, according to His own good pleasure, predestined to an inexorable suffering of endless, unmitigated agony? Why should the Calvinist, himself, love those whom Calvinism's Jesus does not love? Whence comes this compassion for souls by which Calvinists claim to be moved to preaching Calvinism? Does the Holy Spirit imbue them with it? I'm specifically talking about those non-elect to whom Calvinists reach out with the imperative to repent and believe Calvinism. If God does not love, nor pity those non-elect persons, it seems quite strange to imagine that the Holy Spirit would fill the Calvinist with a compassion and pity for those non-elect persons. It seems more like the Calvinist's love and compassion for those whom God, Himself, does not even love, needs to be filed, instead, under the category of prideful defiance of God. It seems that, on account of a cognitive dissonance, the Calvinist's professed sorrow and compassion over the plight of the non-elect amounts to a declaration that, "Whereas God does not love y'all at all, and is actually pleased to throw you into hell to watch you burn, we, on the contrary, have no pleasure in the thought of your burning, and we do love you, and are very sorry to see your suffering!"

Now, of course, I am not the least bit complaining against those Calvinists who are, indeed, compassionate in regard to the plight of those they consider the non-elect--I am not complaining against them for their compassion. What I am complaining about is the cognitive dissonance that allows them to feel free to be compassionate in that way while believing things which necessarily clash with that compassion. I'm all for their (your?) compassion for the non-elect, but that very compassion is, as far as I can tell, a stark testimony against Calvinism.

I do not think that all Calvinists are inconsistent in this regard. But I were that they were.
 

Rosenritter

New member
The Arminian and others are guilty of hypothetical universalism when they make the claim that Christ atoned for all persons. It is to hypothetically assume that if all believed all would be saved. This is to make the actual work of Our Lord but a possibility, not an actuality.

God Himself is a hypothetical universalist and this is stated multiple times and in multiple fashions as to make this quite certain.

Ezekiel 33:11 KJV
(11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

John 3:16-17 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 KJV
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
(3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

No complex formula or volumes of institutes are needed for these statements; they read quite plainly on their own.
 

Rosenritter

New member
God's glory is manifested in all His attributes. All God's attributes inhere one another. There are no attributes elevated above another. God is His attributes. God is jealous about all His attributes (Nah. 1:2; Ex. 20:4-6).

How does God display His mercy unless there are the undeserving?
How is God's glory in His holy wrath towards sin made manifest unless there are those that deserve His holy wrath?
What God has revealed in Holy Writ is ours to know. When God shuts His mouth, so should we (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

Proverbs 25:2 KJV
(2) It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
 

God's Truth

New member
Maybe this deserves its own thread, but what do you say is the gospel?

The gospel is what Jesus came to teach when he walked the earth, and then died for. The gospel is about believing and obeying Jesus, so that a person can be purified by Jesus and not by the purification works of the law, just to go to the temple to be near God's Spirit, but rather to be cleaned by Jesus and become the temple.

It is about believing and obeying Jesus.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
The gospel is what Jesus came to teach when he walked the earth, and then died for. The gospel is about believing and obeying Jesus, so that a person can be purified by Jesus and not by the purification works of the law, just to go to the temple to be near God's Spirit, but rather to be cleaned by Jesus and become the temple.

It is about believing and obeying Jesus.

Does one proceed from the other? In other words, does one come first?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
We have but one infallible and final authority (Scripture) for life and faith, not the magisterium, nor the traditions claimed by Rome.
Bald assertion, nowhere found in the Bible. What Is found in the Bible, are the Church's authentic pastors, the bishops (the whole of them called the Church's Magisterium, the episcopal office, that office tasked specifically with teaching our faith).

Luke 4:4 KJV
(4) And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


Perhaps you're frightened that we ascribe to them too much power, and that they could use that power to supersede the Scripture, but that has never happened, not once, and nor could or would it, given the specific job description of the bishops, which is to teach us what the Apostles themselves taught the earliest Church, before there was ever even the hint of a 'New Testament,' back when the only scriptures were the Old Testament, and the only Apostolic teachings were from their own tongues (which could speak many different languages, but I digress).

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-underground-translator

John Foxe tells us that one day an exasperated Catholic scholar at dinner with Tyndale said, “We were better be without God’s law than the pope’s.
In response, Tyndale spoke his famous words, “I defy the Pope and all his laws. . . . If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause a boy that driveth the plow, shall know more of the Scripture than thou dost.”
 

God's Truth

New member
Does one proceed from the other? In other words, does one come first?

Paul says that the Gentiles were saved while uncircumcised enemies.

What used to keep the Gentiles separate and without God---through the body and blood of Jesus we are all brought near.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
 

Rosenritter

New member
You didn't answer my question. Please try again.

Is God obligated to care about humans who are by nature in rebellion to His Sovereign rule?

Is He obligated? If so...why? If not...why?

God isn't obligated. Your question is logically short circuited at the false premise. Love is not an obligation, yet God loves even his enemies.

Romans 5:10 KJV
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Matthew 5:44, 48 KJV
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Paul says that the Gentiles were saved while uncircumcised enemies.

What used to keep the Gentiles separate and without God---through the body and blood of Jesus we are all brought near.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Okay...but that doesn't answer the question. Are faith and obedience inextricably tied AND does one proceed from the other? If so, which one?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Art, do you love ISIS? Do you invite them into your home and bid them eat at your table with all their weapons in hand while you tell them why they need you?
Are you obligated to love ISIS exactly as they are, with no expectations that they will change?
Are you a man of love, Art? Go to ISIS and prove it to us. Or...are you not obligated?

You mean as Christ willingly died for those that he knew would murder him in a painful and humiliating fashion?
 
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