Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

[MennoSota]

Um, no, although you can declare so as much as you want. I'm not declaring that humans who don't give gifts to all other humans are unloving to start with and it was just a bizarre statement to make, else make your case.

Yet, you declare that God is unloving if he doesn't give gifts equally to all humans. You don't think humans are unloving when they give gifts to only some, but God is evil in your eyes when he chooses whom he wills. You have a conundrum.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yet, you declare that God is unloving if he doesn't give gifts equally to all humans. You don't think humans are unloving when they give gifts to only some, but God is evil in your eyes when he chooses whom he wills. You have a conundrum.

No, I don't. You ascribe to a belief system whereby you're spared a horrific fate and other people aren't and based on what? You don't merit such, you don't warrant such and yet you'll glibly be "all okay" with other people suffering so it's got nothing to do with "gifts" or love as it is. Anything but.

 

[MennoSota]

No, I don't. You ascribe to a belief system whereby you're spared a horrific fate and other people aren't and based on what? You don't merit such, you don't warrant such and yet you'll glibly be "all okay" with other people suffering so it's got nothing to do with "gifts" or love as it is. Anything but.

Where do you see me being glib?
Your bitter prejudice is evident. Moreso, you hate what God declares in the Bible because his declaration makes him inequitable in your eyes. Your hate is at God, not at Calvinists.

 

[7djengo7]

See:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...sm-Are-Saved&p=5284636&viewfull=1#post5284636

AMR

I had already read your post #109, to which you have just sent me a link, and it is not, nor does it contain, an answer to the question I asked you:

By your phrase, "righteous desserts", do you mean righteous people getting what they deserve?​

So, you think you've already answered it by flippantly trying to divert me to your post #109, whereas you have not answered it, and this means that you are never going to try to answer it, because you know (as I, also, know) that you cannot answer it honestly, or to any rationally-thinking person's satisfaction.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Where do you see me being glib?
Your bitter prejudice is evident. Moreso, you hate what God declares in the Bible because his declaration makes him inequitable in your eyes. Your hate is at God, not at Calvinists.

What "bitter prejudice"? I don't bear you any ill will or any other Calvinist. I simply don't ascribe to doctrines that are cold to the core.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No I did not. I just ignored it as it is picayunery.

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is extended to many by God in common, sinner and believer alike (rain, sunshine, fortune, air that is breathed, etc.).

Mercy is getting what we do not deserve. In other words, we do not deserve mercy. Mercy is related to justice (all getting exactly what they are righteously due). In context of my posts in this thread, all in Adam deserve only justice. That God extends mercy to a great multitude no man can number should amaze and awe us; versus having not a few argue in such a manner herein as to presume God's mercy is obligated for all in Adam.

AMR

Why are you one of those chosen? Why are you spared that which your "reprobate" neighbour is fated to? Why are you exempt from the eternal torment that God dictates for others not so lucky as yourself? You go on about how people should be awed as to how God saves anybody but hey, that's a lot easier to say when you believe you're not going to be part of the torment isn't it?

 

[MennoSota]

What "bitter prejudice"? I don't bear you any ill will or any other Calvinist. I simply don't ascribe to doctrines that are cold to the core.

LOL, you are lying through your teeth. God tells us He chooses, elects and predestines. This is fact, not opinion. Yet, you hate that message and call God unloving and unequitable.
Meanwhile, you pick and choose whom you love, yet you don't think of yourself as unloving and unequitable.
Why do you hate what God says, art?

 

[glorydaz]

LOL, you are lying through your teeth. God tells us He chooses, elects and predestines. This is fact, not opinion. Yet, you hate that message and call God unloving and unequitable.
Meanwhile, you pick and choose whom you love, yet you don't think of yourself as unloving and unequitable.
Why do you hate what God says, art?

Looks to me like you want everyone to fall for the nonsense you preach. Hating God is claiming He is unrighteous.....choosing some for hellfire without any cause. Now that is true hatred. Making false claims against God because you fail to understand the words of Scripture. :nono:

 

[MennoSota]

Looks to me like you want everyone to fall for the nonsense you preach. Hating God is claiming He is unrighteous.....choosing some for hellfire without any cause. Now that is true hatred. Making false claims against God because you fail to understand the words of Scripture. :nono:

What does the Bible say is the cause by which humans are cast into hell. The Bible is clear. You, on the other hand, state a bold-faced lie when you claim there is no cause.
Do you imagine yourself to have never broken the moral laws of God? Do you imagine Jesus died for no cause? How foolish of you.

 

[glorydaz]

What does the Bible say is the cause by which humans are cast into hell. The Bible is clear. You, on the other hand, state a bold-faced lie when you claim there is no cause.
Do you imagine yourself to have never broken the moral laws of God? Do you imagine Jesus died for no cause? How foolish of you.

Are you so overcome with anger that you are unable to see straight? What, in God's name, are you rambling about? What is the "bold-faced lie" I have supposedly stated or claimed?

Get a grip on your temper, lest you show a side that should be left unseen.

 

[MennoSota]

Are you so overcome with anger that you are unable to see straight? What, in God's name, are you rambling about? What is the "bold-faced lie" I have supposedly stated or claimed?

Get a grip on your temper, lest you show a side that should be left unseen.

There is no temper with you. Only pity.
Are you incapable of comprehension?
Here's what you said:
"choosing some for hellfire without any cause."
Enough said.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, language and semantics aside, you're darned lucky to have been picked as one of the spared aren't you? You don't deserve it, you don't warrant it but there you are, you're one of the chosen who gets to escape the wrath and torment that you'll prescribe as justice to those who aren't "awarded" the same.

Happy days...

:rain:

When, in fact, it's totally fair that all who believe and trust in the Lord are saved and given eternal life.

 

[glorydaz]

There is no temper with you. Only pity.
Are you incapable of comprehension?
Here's what you said:
"choosing some for hellfire without any cause."
Enough said.

Yes, I have pity for those who claim God chooses to save some and damn others for no reason...other than for His own glory. Enough said. opcorn:

 

[steko]

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, I have pity for those who claim God chooses to save some and damn others for no reason...other than for His own glory. Enough said. opcorn:

What is the no reason that you speak of? Is God's will no reason?
Does it bother you that God does not tell you why some believe and others do not? Does it bother you that Jesus says he keeps all that the Father gives him? Does it bother you that Jesus prayed only for those the Father gives him?
Why does God and his word bother you? Why do you say that God has no reason?

 

[glorydaz]

The only answer to the plain question: "Why you and not your neighbor?" is

"God did it, all of it. I did not want it. I hated God and certainly did not see any choice other than to continue in my hatred. Yet, for reasons known only to Him and not based upon anything meritorious foreseen in me, God changed my nature such that I then genuinely wanted to believe and could not do other than believe. Thanks be to God!"

AMR

I don't understand this thinking.

I never hated God. I had no hatred of God to continue in. There was nothing in me that merited anything, and I would never claim there was. And yet, God does draw all men to Himself...in many ways. He draws us through our need to know our Creator, and we, at some point in time, begin to realize we are missing SOMETHING. There is a void that cannot be filled by what is seen. He draws us through His loving kindness, and through His goodness. When a child is spared we call out to God in thanks....before we are even convinced He exists or hears us. We call on Him in our hour of greatest need before we even know for sure He exists.

None are quickened until they turn to God and believe...trusting in Him at last. Not all are brought to their knees in time to hear. Some love darkness more than the light. So, yes, not all men are equal. We see that all throughout Scripture. We see the humble and the lowly, and we see the proud.

Psalm 138:6 Though the Lord be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.​

Now, I am aware, my dear friend, that you are a real gentlemen, but that doesn't mean you can get away with ignoring me. How do you account for this lack of hatred for God on my part (before I was saved), and on the part of others like me?

 

[glorydaz]

What is the no reason that you speak of? Is God's will no reason?
Does it bother you that God does not tell you why some believe and others do not? Does it bother you that Jesus says he keeps all that the Father gives him? Does it bother you that Jesus prayed only for those the Father gives him?
Why does God and his word bother you? Why do you say that God has no reason?

None of that bothers me, because I know the answers to all those questions. One need only look at the context. Are you thinking what Jesus said was some mystery? Perhaps you aren't paying attention to who He was speaking to or who He was talking about.


I'm just disagreeing with your claims concerning God's will. What you claim makes God unrighteous.

 

[God's Truth]

What is the no reason that you speak of? Is God's will no reason?
Does it bother you that God does not tell you why some believe and others do not? Does it bother you that Jesus says he keeps all that the Father gives him? Does it bother you that Jesus prayed only for those the Father gives him?
Why does God and his word bother you? Why do you say that God has no reason?

God tells us why some believe and some don't.

They are lovers of darkness, haters of light, evil doers, afraid of exposure, stiff necked, resistant, obstinate, they do bad, pursue own imagination, choose what displeases God, futile, without excuse, choose lies, self seeking, they reject, follow evil, hostile to God, deceived by sin, blinded, earthly, taken by the devil, no endurance, choked by life’s worries, riches, and pleasures, they don’t mature, stubborn, follow their own devices, rebellious hearts, turn aside, gone away, stubborn pride, refuse to give up evil and stubborn ways, deceitful, unwilling.

That is what the Bible says.

 

[God's Truth]

When an insurmountable obstacle stands in your way, you have no choice, other than an obvious negative choice.
When that insurmountable obstacle is removed you now have a choice, a positive one.

That "insurmountable obstacle" is man's moral inability for all in Adam. They cannot not sin.
Quickening by God replaces that "heart," metaphorically the seat of one's will, with a new "heart."
Thus, once so instantaneously quickened by the power of the Holy Spirit, the man will not not want to choose aright.

Man is doing the choosing, the believing. God is not. Rather, God is restoring the nature of man wholly corrupted in the fall of Adam to one that is now morally capable of choosing for the good.

It is futile to repeat this to those that deny the extent of the fall of Adam. Those that assume there remains in all fallen men some "seed" of righteousness, such that they are morally able to choose wisely, are assuming something unique exists within themselves that distinguishes them from their neighbors who chose badly. They are in effect adding to the efficacious grace God extends to His children, a super-added grace, contrary to Scripture. Thus, despite their lachrymose or strident claims they do not merit anything by their wise choice, the facts stand against them.

If all in Adam are equally granted the same "seed" of grace—a level playing field—permitting one to choose wisely or unwisely, then those that choose wisely need examine themselves more carefully in hopes of determining what was it in and of themselves that led them to the right choice. It is a fool's errand, for no answer by those that believe this "in Adam, yet not totally corrupt" view will escape the proper charge that they themselves have contributed to their newfound state of re-birth.

The only answer to the plain question: "Why you and not your neighbor?" is

"God did it, all of it. I did not want it. I hated God and certainly did not see any choice other than to continue in my hatred. Yet, for reasons known only to Him and not based upon anything meritorious foreseen in me, God changed my nature such that I then genuinely wanted to believe and could not do other than believe. Thanks be to God!"

AMR

God doesn't supernaturally change people to make them have faith and obey. Faith comes from hearing the supernatural message.

 

[God's Truth]

When an insurmountable obstacle stands in your way, you have no choice, other than an obvious negative choice.
When that insurmountable obstacle is removed you now have a choice, a positive one.

That "insurmountable obstacle" is man's moral inability for all in Adam. They cannot not sin.
Quickening by God replaces that "heart," metaphorically the seat of one's will, with a new "heart."
Thus, once so instantaneously quickened by the power of the Holy Spirit, the man will not not want to choose aright.

Man is doing the choosing, the believing. God is not. Rather, God is restoring the nature of man wholly corrupted in the fall of Adam to one that is now morally capable of choosing for the good.

It is futile to repeat this to those that deny the extent of the fall of Adam. Those that assume there remains in all fallen men some "seed" of righteousness, such that they are morally able to choose wisely, are assuming something unique exists within themselves that distinguishes them from their neighbors who chose badly. They are in effect adding to the efficacious grace God extends to His children, a super-added grace, contrary to Scripture. Thus, despite their lachrymose or strident claims they do not merit anything by their wise choice, the facts stand against them.

If all in Adam are equally granted the same "seed" of grace—a level playing field—permitting one to choose wisely or unwisely, then those that choose wisely need examine themselves more carefully in hopes of determining what was it in and of themselves that led them to the right choice. It is a fool's errand, for no answer by those that believe this "in Adam, yet not totally corrupt" view will escape the proper charge that they themselves have contributed to their newfound state of re-birth.

The only answer to the plain question: "Why you and not your neighbor?" is

"God did it, all of it. I did not want it. I hated God and certainly did not see any choice other than to continue in my hatred. Yet, for reasons known only to Him and not based upon anything meritorious foreseen in me, God changed my nature such that I then genuinely wanted to believe and could not do other than believe. Thanks be to God!"

AMR

God tells us to repent so that we can get a new heart.

Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. 31 Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!