Calvinism Is The Gospel, So Only Believers Of Calvinism Are Saved.

[JudgeRightly]

If this is the way things will go, count me out. No one is obliged to meet your standards and tenor of discourse. Nor mine for that matter. You have been answered and I will leave things at that. If you would rather not engage me then refrain from doing so. Instead why not just make it clear that you are content to use me as a foil to continue your rhetoric for the hoi polloi. I have no problem being personally held up to ridicule. That said, I suspect the purpose of this forum is not for mere caviling, but actual reasoned dialog concerning sacred matters.



Regeneration does not result in complete understanding of all that Scripture teaches. Sanctification is the process by which one grows in their understanding in their walk of faith. Some will come to know more than others by their due diligence, gifts, capabilities, etc.


If you are carefully reading me "mercy is getting what you do not deserve" implies righteous desserts. Accordingly, your example is a category error. :AMR:

AMR

Perhaps you missed it:

That's grace, not mercy.

Mercy is NOT getting what one DOES deserve.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You didn't answer my question. Please try again.

Is God obligated to care about humans who are by nature in rebellion to His Sovereign rule?

Is He obligated? If so...why? If not...why?

I did answer it, you just didn't like the answer or didn't understand it. An all powerful God can obviously do whatever He wants but if He's a loving one then the notion that He sets things up where some folk are chosen to be spared and others to rot then that's anathema.

Art, do you love ISIS? Do you invite them into your home and bid them eat at your table with all their weapons in hand while you tell them why they need you?
Are you obligated to love ISIS exactly as they are, with no expectations that they will change?
Are you a man of love, Art? Go to ISIS and prove it to us. Or...are you not obligated?

Silly analogy. I don't love ISIS or any form of terrorism so no, of course I'm not going to invite terrorists into my home so they can cut my head off or some such and no, I am not obligated.

 

[MennoSota]

I did answer it, you just didn't like the answer or didn't understand it. An all powerful God can obviously do whatever He wants but if He's a loving one then the notion that He sets things up where some folk are chosen to be spared and others to rot then that's anathema.



Silly analogy. I don't love ISIS or any form of terrorism so no, of course I'm not going to invite terrorists into my home so they can cut my head off or some such and no, I am not obligated.

So... you're not a loving human. You don't love rebels like ISIS.
Does this mean God is not a loving God since He doesn't love rebel humans?
Make no mistake, you and I are, by nature, in rebellion against God. We are like ISIS. You are no different than ISIS before God.
Is God obligated to do anything for you? If God chose to do something for you, but not for me, would it make God unloving?

 

[Idolater]

I did answer it, you just didn't like the answer or didn't understand it. An all powerful God can obviously do whatever He wants but if He's a loving one then the notion that He sets things up where some folk are chosen to be spared and others to rot then that's anathema.

If you would like to believe that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, then Clavinism cannot stop you from doing that. The Clavinists want to argue that if you hear the Gospel, and do not believe it, then it is because you are rotten to the core and would never want to believe it on your own. To Clavinists, it requires a miracle for you to want to believe the Gospel in the first place.

And so what. It doesn't change that if you want to believe in Christ's Resurrection, that there's nothing stopping you from doing so.

 

[Arthur Brain]

So... you're not a loving human. You don't love rebels like ISIS.
Does this mean God is not a loving God since He doesn't love rebel humans?
Make no mistake, you and I are, by nature, in rebellion against God. We are like ISIS. You are no different than ISIS before God.
Is God obligated to do anything for you? If God chose to do something for you, but not for me, would it make God unloving?

I don't love terrorism full stop and you can consider humanity to be akin to ISIS as a whole as much as you will, it won't hold sway with me. It's hyper zealous beliefs and brainwashing where such insidious and callous disregard toward life originate and precious little to do with a loving God. In regards to your latter, it would hardly be equitable and if you were one consigned to rot and I wasn't then frankly, I don't see anything loving, fair or just about that. Luck of the draw is all it would be and at odds with the Biblical definition of love.

 

[ok doser]

I don't love terrorism...

how about the human beings that commit acts of terrorism?

do you have any empathy for them?

... full stop and you can consider humanity to be akin to ISIS as a whole as much as you will, it won't hold sway with me.

that's 'cause you're a stubborn bonehead who won't stop to try to consider the point he's making

It's hyper zealous beliefs and brainwashing where such insidious and callous disregard toward life originate

you're blaming religion for your insidious and callous disregard for the humanity of those poor poor people who belong to isis?

 

[MennoSota]

I don't love terrorism full stop and you can consider humanity to be akin to ISIS as a whole as much as you will, it won't hold sway with me. It's hyper zealous beliefs and brainwashing where such insidious and callous disregard toward life originate and precious little to do with a loving God. In regards to your latter, it would hardly be equitable and if you were one consigned to rot and I wasn't then frankly, I don't see anything loving, fair or just about that. Luck of the draw is all it would be and at odds with the Biblical definition of love.

Do you equate unloving with unequitable?
Do you become unloving if you give a gift to one prisoner, but don't give a gift to another prisoner?
Samaritans Purse will hand out gifts to needy children, but they don't provide it to all children. Since this is unequitable, does this make them unloving? Is Samaritans Purse obligated to give gifts to all humanity? Does it make Samaritans Purse unloving because they choose not to do so?
If you give a gift to one prisoner, must you give a gift to all prisoners?
Would you be unloving because you choose to whom you give gifts?
Your proposition that unequitable equals unloving is a false proposition and is therefore illegitimate.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Do you equate unloving with unequitable?
Do you become unloving if you give a gift to one prisoner, but don't give a gift to another prisoner?
Samaritans Purse will hand out gifts to needy children, but they don't provide it to all children. Since this is unequitable, does this make them unloving? Is Samaritans Purse obligated to give gifts to all humanity? Does it make Samaritans Purse unloving because they choose not to do so?
If you give a gift to one prisoner, must you give a gift to all prisoners?
Would you be unloving because you choose to whom you give gifts?
Your proposition that unequitable equals unloving is a false proposition and is therefore illegitimate.

In the context of what you seem to believe then yes. You believe you're spared from eternal torment because you're part of the "elect", correct? You don't deserve to be spared such a horrendous fate but you'll gladly take the pass out of it, right? Your neighbour who is no less or more deserving of the same goes to such a horror and where is your compassion or empathy for your fellow man? Nowhere. There's a parable that kinda reflects that in the unforgiving servant.

:think:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Perhaps you missed it:

No I did not. I just ignored it as it is picayunery.

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is extended to many by God in common, sinner and believer alike (rain, sunshine, fortune, air that is breathed, etc.).

Mercy is getting what we do not deserve. In other words, we do not deserve mercy. Mercy is related to justice (all getting exactly what they are righteously due). In context of my posts in this thread, all in Adam deserve only justice. That God extends mercy to a great multitude no man can number should amaze and awe us; versus having not a few argue in such a manner herein as to presume God's mercy is obligated for all in Adam.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

...Clavinism cannot ...Clavinists ...To Clavinists.

What is a Clavinist? :idunno:

Or, perhaps you are just trying to be clever? Epic fail. Are these tactics proper in discussions of important matters of the faith among adults? :AMR1:

AMR

 

[7djengo7]

If you are carefully reading me "mercy is getting what you do not deserve" implies righteous desserts. Accordingly, your example is a category error. :AMR:

AMR

I don't know that you mean anything by your phrase "righteous desserts". Do you mean righteous people getting what they deserve?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I don't know that you mean anything by your phrase "righteous desserts". Do you mean righteous people getting what they deserve?

See:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...sm-Are-Saved&p=5284636&viewfull=1#post5284636

AMR

 

[JudgeRightly]

No I did not. I just ignored it as it is picayunery.

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is extended to many by God in common, sinner and believer alike (rain, sunshine, fortune, air that is breathed, etc.).

Mercy is getting what we do not deserve. In other words, we do not deserve mercy. Mercy is related to justice (all getting exactly what they are righteously due). In context of my posts in this thread, all in Adam deserve only justice. That God extends mercy to a great multitude no man can number should amaze and awe us; versus having not a few argue in such a manner herein as to presume God's mercy is obligated for all in Adam.

AMR

Picayunery? Really?

All humans deserve justice.

If God shows mercy upon us, we DO NOT get what we DO deserve (justice).

No human deserves grace.

If God shows us grace, we DO get what we DO NOT deserve.

Hence what I said.

 

[MennoSota]

In the context of what you seem to believe then yes. You believe you're spared from eternal torment because you're part of the "elect", correct? You don't deserve to be spared such a horrendous fate but you'll gladly take the pass out of it, right? Your neighbour who is no less or more deserving of the same goes to such a horror and where is your compassion or empathy for your fellow man? Nowhere. There's a parable that kinda reflects that in the unforgiving servant.

:think:

You think all humans who don't give gifts to all other humans are therefore unloving?
Noted.
Do you see how foolish your position is...or not?

 

[7djengo7]

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is extended to many by God in common, sinner and believer alike (rain, sunshine, fortune, air that is breathed, etc.).

"Sinner and believer alike"? Do you mean this phrase as synonymous with the phrase "non-elect and elect alike"?

Elsewhere, speaking of what you call God's "mercy" upon those whom you call "non-elect", you wrote:

...temporal mercies and deliverance, which these reprobate men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord, both by words, and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work.

You are saying that God is being gracious and merciful to non-elect people by aggravating their sin so that he can intensify His wrathful torment of them, and that, in doing so, He is being favorable toward them. Why are you so addicted to irrationality and incoherence?

 

[MennoSota]

What is a Clavinist? :idunno:

Or, perhaps you are just trying to be clever? Epic fail. Are these tactics proper in discussions of important matters of the faith among adults? :AMR1:

AMR

A follower of Cliff Clavin.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You think all humans who don't give gifts to all other humans are therefore unloving?
Noted.
Do you see how foolish your position is...or not?

No, I didn't actually say anything resembling that at all. I'm bemused as to how you even construed it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No I did not. I just ignored it as it is picayunery.

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is extended to many by God in common, sinner and believer alike (rain, sunshine, fortune, air that is breathed, etc.).

Mercy is getting what we do not deserve. In other words, we do not deserve mercy. Mercy is related to justice (all getting exactly what they are righteously due). In context of my posts in this thread, all in Adam deserve only justice. That God extends mercy to a great multitude no man can number should amaze and awe us; versus having not a few argue in such a manner herein as to presume God's mercy is obligated for all in Adam.

AMR

Well, language and semantics aside, you're darned lucky to have been picked as one of the spared aren't you? You don't deserve it, you don't warrant it but there you are, you're one of the chosen who gets to escape the wrath and torment that you'll prescribe as justice to those who aren't "awarded" the same.

Happy days...

:rain:

 

[MennoSota]

No, I didn't actually say anything resembling that at all. I'm bemused as to how you even construed it.

You did. You simply recognize the corner you are in.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You did. You simply recognize the corner you are in.

Um, no, although you can declare so as much as you want. I'm not declaring that humans who don't give gifts to all other humans are unloving to start with and it was just a bizarre statement to make, else make your case.