Why Some Are Hell Bound

[jamie]

Even Jesus was still around while His body lay in the tomb but in His Divine and spiritual state. Scripture tells us that He visited the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:19)

True, Catholics don't believe Jesus actually died. They celebrate his resurrection and yet don't believe he died.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Why is discussion about the nonsensical man made doctrine of coeternal son and father being discussed here? Who is claiming that one must adhere to the traditional trinitarian view, or conversely, the monotheistic view in order to not be damned to eternal destruction?



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Hey pops,

Well, the conversation sortof morphed between Jamie and I when she brought up a Catholic teaching of eternal life and I didn't know what she meant by that.

I haven't seen anyone claim either of the things you mentioned in your post.

I'm trying to understand your earlier post, though where you say:

None are hell bound but those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. That is to say, those who knowingly misguide others regardless of what the Holy Spirit has shown them, what the selfless conscience tells them, what the Word says, and the teachings and example of the Christ of GOD. All things can be repented of though, thankfully.

On the face of it, your first sentence looks very much like a man-made doctrine to me.

Where does the Bible say that none are hell bound except those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

I'm pretty sure Paul somewhere lists quite a few things that can disqualify someone from entering into eternal life. Not just blasphemy.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

That last comment of yours sounds quite condescending, though. I don't like that very much.

Anyways, the Bible says that God created "man" male and female.

I am confused as to what exactly that has to do with the question of why you think God's covenant requires a son.

Where did you get that idea?

My comment was not meant to be condescending, But people are at different levels of spiritual understanding and I didn't want to go beyond your ability to understand.

You asked if the covenant requires a son, no but it requires a son or daughter to honor their parents. Parents give life.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

True, Catholics don't believe Jesus actually died.

That's not true.

Not only all Catholics but all Christians of whatever background believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again." (Paragraph 649)

That is stating it pretty clearly.

They celebrate his resurrection and yet don't believe he died.

That is simply not true.

You are mistaken and claiming that Catholics believe something that they don't.

No Christians believe that.

All Christians believe that Jesus Christ died but His Spirit lived on without His body until He was Resurrected.

Just so you know, all Christians believe the exact same thing about human beings. It is just that Jesus' Resurrection occurred on the third day after His death.

The rest of us, when we die, will have to wait for Jesus' Second Coming to be reunited with our physical bodies.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

My comment was not meant to be condescending, But people are at different levels of spiritual understanding and I didn't want to go beyond your ability to understand.

I understand. No hard feelings.

You asked if the covenant requires a son, no but it requires a son or daughter to honor their parents. Parents give life.

I agree that one must have a child in order to be honored by them (referring to 4th commandment).

But your earlier post said that God's covenant requires a son.

But it doesn't.

There is no requirement to have a son or daughter in order to have a covenantal relationship with God.

St. Paul, for example, who wrote most of the New Testament was never married or had children yet he had a covenantal relationship with God.

Peace.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Hey pops,

Well, the conversation sortof morphed between Jamie and I when she brought up a Catholic teaching of eternal life and I didn't know what she meant by that.

I haven't seen anyone claim either of the things you mentioned in your post.

I'm trying to understand your earlier post, though where you say:



On the face of it, your first sentence looks very much like a man-made doctrine to me.

Where does the Bible say that none are hell bound except those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

I'm pretty sure Paul somewhere lists quite a few things that can disqualify someone from entering into eternal life. Not just blasphemy.

Peace.

Please don't confuse simple blaspheme with blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. All sins will be forgiven humanity but knowing misdirection to the point of misguiding others.

I don't read only the bible but will gladly reference as many biblical verses as you wish if you really need me to. It would be my pleasure actually. Now that I you mention it though; this does give me a reason to use a new app to help with translation issues.

Mark: 3. 11. And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. 12. And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known. 21. And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22. And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24. And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. 28. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30. Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Peace sincerely

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[jamie]

But your earlier post said that God's covenant requires a son.

In post 49 I said, "God's covenant requires a son to honor both his father and his mother, they are his parents."

 

[jamie]

All Christians believe that Jesus Christ died but His Spirit lived on without His body until He was Resurrected.

I was going by the Apostles' Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=220​

In this Creed does "hell" mean the grave?

 

[Robert Pate]

I was going by the Apostles' Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=220​

In this Creed does "hell" mean the grave?

Even the devil believes "The apostles creed" and trembles.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Please don't confuse simple blaspheme with blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. All sins will be forgiven humanity but knowing misdirection to the point of misguiding others.

I disagree.

Unrepented of sins are not forgiven.

If we read the passage you quoted in context and in connection with other parts of the Bible, we see that what Jesus is saying is that all sins that men commit can be forgiven....not that they will be.

The Bible is quite clear that forgiveness depends on man's repentance.

One cannot go out and commit adultery or murder, remain inpenitent, and expect to be forgiven by God.

It is a wrong conclusion to say that "all sins will be forgiven humanity".

They won't.

Unrepented of sins are not forgiven.

An extreme example that disproves your idea, I think, is one of a serial killer. A person could live an isolated life, hermit-like, commit multiple murders, never repent...And...never have knowingly misdirected or misguided anyone because they simply never interacted with anyone.

Is that person forgiven? I don't think so.

I don't read only the bible but will gladly reference as many biblical verses as you wish if you really need me to. It would be my pleasure actually. Now that I you mention it though; this does give me a reason to use a new app to help with translation issues.

Quote bible verses if you wish or not. I was just curious as to why you would call the doctrine of the Trinity a nonsensical man-made tradition and if the same or different criteria was used to conclude that nobody is hell-bound except those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

It looks to me like your claim is based on a misunderstanding of Mark 3:28 and how men receive forgiveness of their sins.

Peace.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I disagree.

Unrepented of sins are not forgiven.

If we read the passage you quoted in context and in connection with other parts of the Bible, we see that what Jesus is saying is that all sins that men commit can be forgiven....not that they will be.

The Bible is quite clear that forgiveness depends on man's repentance.

One cannot go out and commit adultery or murder, remain inpenitent, and expect to be forgiven by God.

It is a wrong conclusion to say that "all sins will be forgiven humanity".

They won't.

Unrepented of sins are not forgiven.

An extreme example that disproves your idea, I think, is one of a serial killer. A person could live an isolated life, hermit-like, commit multiple murders, never repent...And...never have knowingly misdirected or misguided anyone because they simply never interacted with anyone.

Is that person forgiven? I don't think so.



Quote bible verses if you wish or not. I was just curious as to why you would call the doctrine of the Trinity a nonsensical man-made tradition and if the same or different criteria was used to conclude that nobody is hell-bound except those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

It looks to me like your claim is based on a misunderstanding of Mark 3:28 and how men receive forgiveness of their sins.

Peace.

I think you are confused. All sins will be forgiven men is synonymous with salvation being available to all. We have the freedom to repent. All of us but those whom blaspheme the Holy Spirit which perhaps could repent but will not be forgiven.

You got offended because I said the Trinity is nonsense and felt the need to return the favor.

peace

I didn't mean to offend you and should have chosen my words about the Trinity more carefully as to not cause conflict, nor show disrespect for the faith of another.

I look forward to your response.



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[Ktoyou]

There are people who are going to hell because they cannot get past themselves.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I was going by the Apostles' Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=220​

In this Creed does "hell" mean the grave?

I don't think so. I think that would be pretty odd usage of the term "hell".

I think it means He descended to the dead. The spiritual realm of those who had died. But not "hell" as in "eternal and complete separation from God".

But only His Spirit did that. His body remained in the grave until He arose on the third day.

If you are going by the Apostles' Creed, it is a clear belief that Jesus died.

All Christians believe that.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I think you are confused. All sins will be forgiven men is synonymous with salvation being available to all.

Well, in that case we are absolutely in agreement on that point.

We have the freedom to repent. All of us but those whom blaspheme the Holy Spirit which perhaps could repent but will not be forgiven.

Ok. I agree. We all could repent. But if we don't, we could be hell bound even if we don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Right?

You got offended because I said the Trinity is nonsense and felt the need to return the favor.

No. I wouldn't put it that way. I noticed that you called belief in the Trinity a man-made tradition and when I read your words about only those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit going to hell, well, that sounds just as much like a man-made tradition as the Trinity. So, I asked you about it.

Do you think some people could go to hell who do not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit or no?

peace

I didn't mean to offend you and should have chosen my words about the Trinity more carefully as to not cause conflict, nor show disrespect for the faith of another.

I look forward to your response.

I don't feel conflict. People disagree about all kinds of things on these forums. It makes for interesting conversations. Some people degrade into name calling and such quite rapidly. But others can talk about their differences and maintain respect for one another.

Peace seriously to you.

 

[jamie]

If you are going by the Apostles' Creed, it is a clear belief that Jesus died.

Jesus died and his spirit returned to the Father.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Jesus died and his spirit returned to the Father.

Yeah, sure. But first He preached to the "spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19.

Then rose from the dead, then appeared to His followers.

Then He ascended into Heaven.

 

[jamie]

Yeah, sure. But first He preached to the "spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison... (1 Peter 3:18-19)​

Jesus was made alive by the Spirit by means of a resurrection from the dead. After he was made alive he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Dead men don't talk.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Well, in that case we are absolutely in agreement on that point.


But if we don't, we could be hell bound even if we don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Right?

Let's go over sin briefly.
We know of sin through the law right? The law is written in the heart of the Jew (truthful zealot), or is it the gentile (heathen)?So knowing the law, to sin is to knowingly go against what is right that is written in the heart by the Holy Spirit. So to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is knowing sin of the "faithful". This establishes the point that the truly faithful to GOD, those that do not deny the Christ, will be judged to the extent of their knowledge weighed against their words and actions. To be ignorant is to not know the law, which is to say the Holy Spirit does not dwell within them and as such they are innocent if truly ignorant of sin. As far as a murderer murdering people and not repenting; I must assume you mean a murderer with a fully functioning mind (but then a mass murderer wouldn't have a correctly functioning mind), in which case I would say the same.l; the law is written on the heart of man. If he has a conscience and is shamed that would be the Holy Spirit wanting to persuade change or repentance. So if being shamed by the Holy Spirit/selfless conscience, said murderer did not change prior to the inevitability of their physical death then yes, they would suffer hell. That is to say they would Ultimately be destroyed, and fuel that fires the kiln for the new creation wholly of GOD by only the will of GOD which is all that will remain. It isn't a man made doctrine, we just have a slight communication block going on. You can credit that one to me I guess.



I'm glad we do agree on many points it seems. A good start, no thanks to me.

I hope we can speak more in the future

peace

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[Bard_the_Bowman]

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison... (1 Peter 3:18-19)​

Right. Jesus died. (being put to death in the flesh (above))

But His Spirit didn't die. Nobody's does. He preached to those in spiritual prison alive as pure Spirit. His body was still in the grave.

Jesus was made alive by the Spirit by means of a resurrection from the dead.

After he was made alive he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Dead men don't talk.

We might be using "died" differently.

Humans die when their non-physical spirit separates from their physical bodies.

That is death. That happened to Jesus. That happens to us.

Death is not total obliteration of body and spirit and a cease to exist entirely.

So Jesus experienced death (separation of body and spirit) and as pure spirit (no physical body) He preached to those in the spiritual realm.

Still a death, though.

His Resurrection was the reuniting of His Spirit to His lifeless body. That is how He conquered death. It couldn't hold him.

Peace.

 

[TulipBee]

Calvinism don't teach works saves