Why Some Are Hell Bound

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Your supreme being will be Satan. He is strong. . Dont let false teachers send you into the NWO. It is such a wonderful thing to know truth. The first step to understanding the Bible is that you can't be patriotic.

Well, the Bible doesn't say that anywhere that I know of.

Why can't you be both? I think it was Thomas More who said something like "I am a servant of the king. But a servant of God first." In other words, he loved his country...but loved and served God more. Then he was martyred.

Government is a beast.

Can be. Shouldn't be, but can be, yes.

Next thing is understanding spiritual warfare. It is huge.

Yup.

Mythology is not mythology it is fallen angel worship.

Could be.

You don't find truth at church. Jesus is king. Read the Bible.

I disagree. What about churches that read the Bible? You'd find truth at that church then, right?

Or can we only find truth if we read the bible all alone?

Then what do people do who cannot read at all?

(btw, I don't disagree with the "Jesus is King" part above._

Peace.

 

[jamie]

God the Holy Spirit is and always has been pure spirit.

And the Holy Spirit fathered a Son.

That's why the Holy Spirit's Son is the Son of God.

 

[jamie]

Your supreme being will be Satan.

Of course Satan will die. He may even die twice.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

And the Holy Spirit fathered a Son.

That's why the Holy Spirit's Son is the Son of God.

Hi Jamie.

I agree that the Trinity is a toughy. Just as a point of clarification, though, that isn't how most Christians view the Trinity.

begotten can mean "fathered" but it can mean "caused to be".

One of the explanations that I have heard explaining the relationship of the Trinity says this:

God is love. (1 John 4:8)

That is His essence and it is perfect. And has been for all eternity. There hasn't been a time when God wasn't perfect love.

In other words, God doesn't need us or a creation to be perfect love.

And Love requires three things: A lover, a beloved (someone to love), and the relationship between the two.

God cannot be a single person or He cannot eternally have been love. He would be lacking a person to love so 1 John 4:8 could not always have been true about God. He could only have self-love which is really narcissism.

But God is eternally perfect so eternally God the Father has always loved His Son. So His Son has eternally existed with Him. There never was a time He didn't. So His Son is the same substance as the Father. The Son is God.

The relationship of love between them is so perfect and strong that a third person proceeds from their love..the Holy Spirit. Who has also existed eternally perfectly and who is also God.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The Jews love to record things. The Old Testament is a record of man's inability to please a Holy God.

Well, Israel did fall short of doing what God wanted them to do being His first-born nation and spreading the news of Him to other nations.

But I think it is more accurate to say that the Old Testament records God's plan of salvation for all of man-kind.

I think it was St. Augustine who said "the New Testament is hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is revealed in the New."

The New Testament is a record of God's solution to man's sinfulness.

Amen. The completion of His plan of salvation for man. The solution is a person. Jesus.

Peace.

 

[beloved57]

The Jews love to record things. The Old Testament is a record of man's inability to please a Holy God.

The New Testament is a record of God's solution to man's sinfulness.

​False and inaccurate statement not found in scripture !

 

[jamie]

begotten can mean "fathered" but it can mean "caused to be".

And the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive can also mean fathered.

We know the Holy Spirit is a person because he fathered Jesus by causing her to become pregnant.

No sweat. A woman becoming pregnant has happened before, we understand it.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

And the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive can also mean fathered.

We know the Holy Spirit is a person because he fathered Jesus by causing her to become pregnant.

No sweat. A woman becoming pregnant has happened before, we understand it.

Hey Jamie,

Ok, yeah, I get what you are saying. Right on. The Incarnation. I agree.

I was talking about Jesus' eternal existence as the Son as pure spirit prior to the Incarnation.

So yeah. It's all good.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

I was talking about Jesus' eternal existence as the Son as pure spirit prior to the Incarnation.

A son by definition has a beginning. This means a son is not a son until his life is generated by his father and he is born by his mother.

God's covenant requires a son to honor both his father and his mother, they are his parents.

There are no sons who were not born.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

A son by definition has a beginning.

That doesn't apply to an eternally existent God. "Begotten" when speaking of an eternally existent God refers to "cause to be". Since God is the cause of His own existence (He just is), the Father and the Son have eternally existed.

That is just the way it was before creation occurred.

Incidentally, a son has the nature of his father.

An elephant "son" is, by nature, elephant.
An elk "son" is, by nature, elk.
A human being's son is, by nature, a human being.

And God's Son is, by nature, God.

Calling Jesus "Son" is a way for us to try to understand the relationship between the Father and the Son.

This means a son is not a son until his life is generated by his father and he is born by his mother.

Not true when speaking of an eternally existent God.

Jesus is a special case because He was "begotten" in the "cause to be" sense eternally as pure spirit. That means He is not a created being. As a matter of fact, all created things were created through Him. And He couldn't create Himself (that is a logical impossibility.)

So He is God.

But He also took on flesh in the Incarnation and was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In that sense, He was born a human being through Mary.

God's covenant requires a son to honor both his father and his mother, they are his parents.

I don't think that is accurate. What exactly do you mean...God's covenant requires a son?

What if an Israelite (or any) couple is barren? Or only has daughters?

Are they forbidden from having a covenantal relationship with God?

I am skeptical that that is true.

There are no sons who were not born.

If we think in merely human terms, sure.

But God doesn't fit within our merely human thinking terms.

He existed before there was matter, space, or time.

Calling Jesus God's Son is true, and it is also a way for us to understand the relationship between God the Father and God the Son.

But that doesn't mean that Jesus had to be born like humans.

Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't exist until He was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary?

John 1 says that He did exist before taking on flesh. And that He is uncreated, therefore, God.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

That doesn't apply to an eternally existent God.

Can an eternally existent God die? If so what was the point of the Word becoming human?

Death was the purpose for Jesus' humanity.

You have put all things in subjection under his feet.

For in that He put all in subjection under him [humans], He left nothing that is not put under him [humans]. But now we do not yet see all things put under him [humans]. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:8-9)​

This is the Spirit's purpose for humanity.

 

[jamie]

That doesn't apply to an eternally existent God.

What if an eternally existent God surrendered his status as God to become human?

Is he still then eternally existent?

 

[jamie]

Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't exist until He was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary?

No, I am saying the reason the Word became human is to become the Savior.

Can God die for sin?

What if God can't die at all? Then what?

However, it had been proven sometime before the first century that humans can die. So what if God became human, then he could die, right?

And so he did.

 

[jamie]

I don't think that is accurate. What exactly do you mean...God's covenant requires a son?

What if "man" was created male and female?

So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27)​

This discussion has gotten too deep for you, hasn't it?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Why is discussion about the nonsensical man made doctrine of coeternal son and father being discussed here? Who is claiming that one must adhere to the traditional trinitarian view, or conversely, the monotheistic view in order to not be damned to eternal destruction?



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[Bard_the_Bowman]

Can an eternally existent God die?

Hey Jamie,

Eternally existent might not have been the best choice of words. What I meant by that is God has always existed even before creation and that He will always exist.

God could only die by willingly doing so as Jesus did. But that was a temporary situation as He conquered death and rose again. And that doesn't mean that no God existed during those three days because God didn't die. The second person of the Trinity did in His humanity. There is a difference.

If so what was the point of the Word becoming human?

Death was the purpose for Jesus' humanity.

Amen. I agree.

You have put all things in subjection under his feet.

For in that He put all in subjection under him [humans], He left nothing that is not put under him [humans]. But now we do not yet see all things put under him [humans]. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:8-9)

This is the Spirit's purpose for humanity.

Amen.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

What if an eternally existent God surrendered his status as God to become human?

Is he still then eternally existent?

Of course, He didn't cease to exist did He?

Peace.

 

[jamie]

Of course, He didn't cease to exist did He?

Is the penalty for sin death?

Did he pay that penalty for those who accept him?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

No, I am saying the reason the Word became human is to become the Savior.

Can God die for sin?

Of course, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity did it.

What if God can't die at all? Then what?

Well, by taking on human flesh He can. Jesus did it.

However, it had been proven sometime before the first century that humans can die. So what if God became human, then he could die, right?

Yes. In the sense that the second person of the Trinity did that in His humanity already.

But not in the sense that God was killed and so there was a time period when there was no God.

Even Jesus was still around while His body lay in the tomb but in His Divine and spiritual state. Scripture tells us that He visited the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:19)

And so he did.

I agree.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

What if "man" was created male and female?

So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27)​

This discussion has gotten too deep for you, hasn't it?

You know, I enjoy discussions with you, Jamie because I have found you to be composed, intelligent, and you bring up interesting ideas.

That last comment of yours sounds quite condescending, though. I don't like that very much.

Anyways, the Bible says that God created "man" male and female.

I am confused as to what exactly that has to do with the question of why you think God's covenant requires a son.

Where did you get that idea?

I don't see that or understand what you mean by that.

Peace.