toldailytopic: What can be done to help prevent the epidemic of school shootings?

Christ's Word

New member
No, only proof that you're eager to assume whatever serves that deep seated anger issue of yours.


You don't know a lot of things...how to argue, for one.


I But it would still have all the advantages I noted earlier without the potentially lethal drawbacks .........


We have had School Resource Officers in every public school in our county for decades. No evidence of your proclaimed "accidents", or "drawbacks". You flood every issue with heaps of garbage, and claim wisdom and experience. You should leave real problems like this to the professionals. Your suggestions are about as deep as a side walk puddle.
 

Christ's Word

New member
pay attention
first she was a teacher
then
she was a substitute teacher
then
she was a volunteer
and
now they never heard of her

we will have to wait for real story


What I find amazing is the 911 tape that is likely to disappear. The first responder to reach the scene says, "there are two handguns in the school, and a rifle in the car". Now it appears the "assault rifle", did all of the killing........hmmmmmm, yet the perp shot himself inside the school. So I suppose he was kind enough to put his rifle back in the car.....and then go back into the school to off himself? Let the misinformation campaign continue.

BTW - Did anyone else notice how powerful Knight's post was, when he was not being sarcastic and cynical? I don't often give him credit, but when I do, I will have to second the earlier nomination for post of the year.
 

rainee

New member
Interestingly though, it rose to 4.6 in the period 1901 to 1909, the presidental period of Roosevelt. The rate was unusually low in the latter half of the 19th century, but it was higher before that again. It peaked in the 1960-1990 and is now declining. However, historically speaking, homicide rates have declined significantly (as in the overall trend over a large period of time). Your "rejection of God" theory is contradicted by facts, not just by US numbers but also by the fact that the homicide rate in far more secular countries are a fraction of the US rates. Inzl Kett's claim, that there is a causal link between the rejection of creationism and violence is ludicrous, the correlation is opposite of that claim (which is not the same as claiming an opposite causal link).
Your rate is also much higher than other modernized countries with far stricter gun laws than the US (Most European countries and Japan as well). On the other hand, you have Switzerland that have an abundance of guns, but fairly low homicide rate. So it is not my intention to say that there is a necessary causal link between abundance of private weapons and homicide rates, but there is a correlation. The cause is probably complicated, social and cultural factors.

Switzerland has a high suicide rate. Do you take that as a sign of spiritual health in a country?

Inzl could very well be right in talking about evolution hurting here in this country.. If the underpinning of this country is being torn up - like attacks on Christianity could be seen as doing, then some people may suffer from it. Jeffrey Dahmer said evolution dehumanized people for him.
Ted Bundy said porn ruined him in his ever escalating sex fantasies.

Some things are just not good for people.




Matthew 6:13
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
Switzerland has a high suicide rate. Do you take that as a sign of spiritual health in a country?

What? Where have I said anything about this? All I did was noting was that Switzerland is an exception to the gun abundance/high homicide correlation and you bring up a totally separate issue which I have made no comment on.

Inzl could very well be right in talking about evolution hurting here in this country.. If the underpinning of this country is being torn up - like attacks on Christianity could be seen as doing, then some people may suffer from it. Jeffrey Dahmer said evolution dehumanized people for him.
Ted Bundy said porn ruined him in his ever escalating sex fantasies.

Some things are just not good for people.
Matthew 6:13

Nonsense. The USA has the lowest popular acceptance of the theory of evolution in the modern world (45%) and it is topping the lists in homicides and violent crimes. European countries have a far higher acceptance of the theory of evolution (70-90%) and most countries there have a fraction of the US homicide and violent crimes rate. That is direct evidence that shows that there is absolutely no correlation between the acceptance of the theory of evolution and the rate of homicide.

Regardless, the theory of evolution is a scientific theory. It does not cease to be accurate. I highly doubt that teaching your children to ignore facts will improve anything. The theory of evolution does not negate the possibility of morality or religion, what it negates is the ridiculous notion that is creationism.
 

rexlunae

New member
tumblr_mf5pxr7bT71qzeaodo1_400.png


Full resolution image here.

I think there might just be a correlation here ...

Well yes, certainly compared to other nations that's true. But he was arguing a correlation with the opposite slope, so I was asking him to substantiate that.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Gun laws are too restrictive and need to be broadened. If you want to stop this kind of slaughter, put guns in the hands of those who are in a tactical position to stop it - the teachers.

That would cause more deaths. There are many, many more accidental shooting deaths than deaths from school shootings. You want to solve a very low risk by introducing a much greater risk.

Enact laws that demands the automatic death penalty for those who engage in such attacks.

Since these people already plan on dying, that would have exactly zero deterrent. Again, not a rational response.

Quit worrying about WHY some did such a thing and deal with the individual. Who in the world cares why they did it. Knowing why they did it will not stop it.

The disturbing thing is, we probably can't stop it. We can certainly take steps to make it harder, which almost all school districts have done. But we shouldn't make the school more dangerous for children, to address a danger that is so very unlikely as a school shooting.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
We have had School Resource Officers in every public school in our county for decades.
Was there an armed policeman at Sandy Hook monitoring the safety of the children?

There wasn't.

No evidence of your proclaimed "accidents", or "drawbacks".
Of course there is, but you have to stop and think. Accidents in homes with guns tells you about the risk and the drawbacks are as easy to imagine. A large number of armed teachers with their backs to a board or at their desk, any number of distractions with potentially lethal consequences. An open invitation.

Now an officer given the one task isn't prone to that and he's already trained. And he and other officers in the rotation are a steady and reliable source, not a year to year gamble in significant investment.

To recap the advantages:

A dedicated (to one task) person with reliable training and authorization that won't require us to alter gun free zoning laws.

A fiscally more reasonable allocation of funds, since the police will come trained, instead of training a number of teachers who may or may not return.

A minimal number of firearms on campus, limiting the likelihood of accidental injury.

You flood every issue with heaps of garbage, and claim wisdom and experience.
No. I make rational, thought out proposals and you respond with typical angry bluster and not much else. You're so out of your noggin over the messenger and your rush to get at him you're not thinking about much else, demonstrably.

You should leave real problems like this to the professionals.
That's precisely what I'm doing in not giving the task of safeguarding teachers to civilians with enough on their plates.

Your suggestions are about as deep as a side walk puddle.
And yet you haven't offered any real, particular criticism outside of the larger school bit, which I answered easily enough. And you've proposed even less particularly on your own.

You should probably calm down or leave the discussion for those capable of engaging in it rationally. :thumb:
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame

toldailytopic: What can be done to help prevent the epidemic of school shootings?

Making sure law abiding citizens are allowed to be armed in all locations would be a start. Also, what Knight posted [quoted below], and getting rid of public schools.

I have heard the President and a dozen media reporters all say... "go home and hug your children." And while that's never bad advice you shouldn't stop there.

Hug your children and tell them...
- That life is sacred.
- Tell them they are not just animals that evolved from slime.
- Tell them that they were created by a loving God who gave them a spirit and a soul.
- Tell them there are eternal consequences for our actions here on earth.
- Tell them that God loves them and wants them to love Him in return.
- Tell them that it's wrong to kill innocent children, even children still in the womb.
- Tell them that life has purpose and meaning greater than the current events surrounding their life.
- Tell them that we should love God, family, and our neighbors, and that we should care for other people around us.
- Tell them that God doesn't orchestrate wicked events and that God grieves with us when people do wicked things.
- Tell them that there IS such a thing as right and wrong and that morality doesn't come from our wicked society but from God Himself.
- Tell them that God loves us so much He sent His only Son to die on the cross so that we could live.
- Tell them that God gave parents the responsibility to love our own children they way He loves us.
- Tell them that you love them and make sure they understand what that means.

So yes hug your children.... but don't stop there.
 

rainee

New member
Hi there Sela, sorry I couldn't get back before now.

What? Where have I said anything about this? All I did was noting was that Switzerland is an exception to the gun abundance/high homicide correlation and you bring up a totally separate issue which I have made no comment on.

Ok, I see that but that disturbs me. The other guy "Tin-something" did the same thing. Suicide won't count because it is killing self and homicide is about killing others? You are very particular about what destroys us? I find this not reasonable, young sir. Isn't there more to this than merely augments?



The USA has the lowest popular acceptance of the theory of evolution in the modern world (45%) and it is topping the lists in homicides and violent crimes. European countries have a far higher acceptance of the theory of evolution (70-90%) and most countries there have a fraction of the US homicide and violent crimes rate. That is direct evidence that shows that there is absolutely no correlation between the acceptance of the theory of evolution and the rate of homicide.

I have made bold what I wish to challenge. "No correlation"? Absolutely?

How many murderers have been questioned? I already said Dahmer is QUOTED as saying something about that. Why don't murderers count?

Regardless, the theory of evolution is a scientific theory. It does not cease to be accurate. I highly doubt that teaching your children to ignore facts will improve anything. The theory of evolution does not negate the possibility of morality or religion, what it negates is the ridiculous notion that is creationism.

must go argue later
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Actually, there is a correlation between acceptance of evolution and violence...
wpid-Photo-Jul-22-2012-1201-AM.jpg


But it's a negative correlation. Societies that deny evolution tend to be more violent. Those that are most accepting of evolution tend to be more peaceful.

I'm guessing it's not really about evolution, but about education. Some states in the United States have abysmal education systems.
 

Letsargue

New member
Switzerland has a high suicide rate. Do you take that as a sign of spiritual health in a country?

Inzl could very well be right in talking about evolution hurting here in this country.. If the underpinning of this country is being torn up - like attacks on Christianity could be seen as doing, then some people may suffer from it. Jeffrey Dahmer said evolution dehumanized people for him.
Ted Bundy said porn ruined him in his ever escalating sex fantasies.

Some things are just not good for people.




Matthew 6:13


Does anybody remember what the "Whole duty of man" is?? - Is that not done by just preaching the Gospel?? - How does a Christian take the sins away from the sinner, and not take the sinner away from the sins??? --- There are sins in the World, -- BUT!!! - SO, lets just remove the sins, and not the sinner?? - Are we supposed to stop the killing or anything? - If so, go vote again!!

Paul -- 122712
 

Christ's Word

New member
Now an officer given the one task isn't prone to that and he's already trained. And he and other officers in the rotation are a steady and reliable source, not a year to year gamble in significant investment.

To recap the advantages:

A dedicated (to one task) person with reliable training and authorization that won't require us to alter gun free zoning laws.

A fiscally more reasonable allocation of funds, since the police will come trained, instead of training a number of teachers who may or may not return.



No. I make rational, thought out proposals and you respond with typical angry bluster and not much else. :


Your posts are so naive, you know nothing about the state of policing, or how to defend a school. My husband, who is an expert on security (over 20 years in Navy as an operator), read your post and almost spit out his coffee laughing. Your suggestion of one dedicated policeman was particularly funny to him. I believe he said, "Every one would know who the guy was, and he would just be the first person the perp killed, only an idiot would suggest something so easy to defeat. He also mentioned that police budgets are being cut all over the country, and they do not have the man power available to actually protect schools. He should know, he teaches post certified classes in Patrol Rifle, Precision Rifle, and Less Lethal techniques.

What we really have here is a gross misallocation of resources. School districts spending way too much money on Principal and Admin salaries (huge six figure amounts), and ignoring their responsibility to provide adequate security.

Some other points my husband made after reading your naive statements:


1. You can not ignore perimeter security like this moron does.

2. The average policeman does not shoot well enough to deal with an active shooter situation in a crowded school. You will need at least experienced S.W.A.T. level shooters.

3. Our children are a lot more valuable than a lot of things I have guarded in my career.

4. You will need at least two people armed at each school that the general population can not know are armed, otherwise they become the first to be killed, and the mass shootings happen anyway, because there is no one left to respond.

5. The risk to accidents have nothing to do with the number of guns on a school campus, and every thing to do with the skill of the men carrying them.

6. This clown describes behavior patterns in his recommendations, and that is the exact opposite of what the security function needs to do. They need to be unpredictable, and hard to identify, so as many as possible are available to counter an attack.


I must say, after reading your garbage, and then listening to a real security expert speak, you remind me of a babbling kindergartner. :guitar:
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Your posts are so naive, you know nothing about the state of policing, or how to defend a school. My husband, who is an expert on security (over 20 years in Navy as an operator), read your post and almost spit out his coffee laughing.
Given what follows and the peculiar similarities in opinion and language between you and "him" I have no reason to believe "he's" more than an extension of your imagination.

Your suggestion of one dedicated policeman was particularly funny to him.
Actually not my proposal. I said a policeman (or more, depending on the size of the school) dedicated to the task of monitoring and responding. One of my best friends retired as a Master Sergeant in the Marines running MPs out of the Palms. He doesn't agree with your imaginary friend's assessment.

I believe he said, "Every one would know who the guy was, and he would just be the first person the perp killed, only an idiot would suggest something so easy to defeat.
Only someone who hadn't read me and who is most likely you would say that. These attacks aren't being carried out by boy geniuses or skilled tacticians. They're essentially crude plans, effective mostly because they're unopposed in execution, which is why when they're confronted they tend to kill themselves and their plans fall apart.

At any rate my suggestion ended at the policeman or policemen armed and dedicated to the one task given a point of observation, monitoring the entrances. The rest is your invention and your invention's invention.

Now an actual, real live person, the Marine now working in law enforcement, did have a bit of constructive advice. He said a potential problem in my lock down/buzz in was that in the morning and evening you'd have bottlenecks which would be ideal for someone trying to shoot or bomb and kill a lot of people. He suggested additional support at that time for multiple entrances and an outside (literally) presence at those times. Otherwise he liked the plan, allowing for adding more officers where the school size (and population) dictated.

He also mentioned that police budgets are being cut all over the country, and they do not have the man power available to actually protect schools.
It wouldn't take as much as training large numbers of teachers every year and the additional insurance and other expenses. Also, the officers involved could be part of the regular force, rotating in and out during the school year and otherwise a part of the normal operations of their respective PDs. Their additional training would be of benefit to the communities they serve.

Our county seat has struggled with budget difficulties and cutbacks. Department heads have had to be pretty creative with their resources, but if we can't prioritize the safety of our children we might as well fold tent. And again, my proposal should be less expensive than any other actual proposal set out here so far.

What we really have here is a gross misallocation of resources. School districts spending way too much money on Principal and Admin salaries (huge six figure amounts), and ignoring their responsibility to provide adequate security.
I know teachers who'd agree with the first part. I don't think the second is true. The principle who died at Sandy Hook had put in place a program aimed at making her school safer, but she needed my guy in place and didn't have him.

1. You can not ignore perimeter security like this moron does.
I didn't ignore it so much as not respond to it, given that most of the school killings have occurred inside the campus area and that was my concentration. I was talking about on campus measures that would have prevented what happened in Sandy Hook. If that's difficult to afford patrolling perimeters is a fairly tale.

2. The average policeman does not shoot well enough to deal with an active shooter situation in a crowded school. You will need at least experienced S.W.A.T. level shooters.
What part of training didn't you or your imaginary friend understand? One of the first things I noted to Trad was the impact of adrenaline and emotions on a shooter as part of what made the "arm the teachers" proposal a disaster waiting to happen.


3. Our children are a lot more valuable than a lot of things I have guarded in my career.
You got that much right.

4. You will need at least two people armed at each school that the general population can not know are armed, otherwise they become the first to be killed, and the mass shootings happen anyway, because there is no one left to respond.
It would be difficult to have people moving about with weapons without people knowing who they were and if the weapons were sufficiently hidden and the students managed to get weapons into the facility it would be a simple matter to shoot every adult you saw and if you did know which adults were the carriers they could be put at a significant tactical disadvantage by virtue of having to retrieve the hidden guns.

Again, sweep the school in the morning, check students through at the door and restrict access to buzz ins while the officer monitors activity and points of access. He's not putting his weapon(s) within reach of children or potential killers. He's in a position to respond quickly and effectively against an amateur who's likely unhinged.

5. The risk to accidents have nothing to do with the number of guns on a school campus, and every thing to do with the skill of the men carrying them.
No, he's a figment or that's just you again. No one who has any training with weapons would make that asinine a statement. A person trying to conceal a weapon while concentrating on other tasks presents a number of dangers. He isn't an effective guardian of his weapon or his charges.

6. This clown describes behavior patterns in his recommendations, and that is the exact opposite of what the security function needs to do. They need to be unpredictable, and hard to identify, so as many as possible are available to counter an attack.
No. Your imagination should have read me more carefully and engaged me substantively. As with my Marine friend, I'm not above taking counsel or hashing a thing out. The larger schools was a decent example, even if my operating principle remained intact.

I must say, after reading your garbage, and then listening to a real security expert speak, you remind me of a babbling kindergartner. :guitar:
That's because you and your imaginary friend aren't rational, are so emotionally embroiled in this impulse control issue that you can't help yourself.

As always, a pleasure. :plain:
 
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