toldailytopic: Is it wrong to hate?

[chrysostom]

How should any nonbeliever *know* that it doesn't define Christianity? I mean seriously, Chrys, look around you. Hatred is being defended as a Christian attribute by some and rejected by others.

I would think that IF the Christian lifestyle is so superior that you would all at least have an agreement on a simple thing like love and hatred.

you can reject anything you want to
and if their definition of Christianity helps you do it
it will be your loss and their gain

 

[Rusha]

you can reject anything you want to
and if their definition of Christianity helps you do it
it will be your loss and their gain

As usual, you are unable to answer a direct question. Being that I am NOT a Christian, how it is defined and acted on by others isn't my problem or concern.

Many here reject the idea that Catholics are actually Christians. The FACT that you spend endless hours defending your religious denomination and claiming you are is no loss to me.

 

[Town Heretic]

Should Cathy have forgiven an unrepentant McVeigh?

Completely up to her. There's no should absent his repentance and inclusion in the body. In any event, her forgiveness has nothing to do with his salvation absent its example working to alter his perception of mercy, just as her condemnation would have been to no account unless it worked a change in him born of fear in judgment.

Some men, I suspect, have chosen the evil they find themselves in so throughly that they will never see their way out of it. McVeigh's own words paint him as such a man. So whatever she said to him, I hope that it helped her in her pain, because it could not reach him in his.

Should we hate the wicked?

Matthew 5:44 I don't know how to hate and love. I hate evil and the choice of it, in others and in my own life as I look across the length of it. I suppose I'd say I hate the workers of evil for the horror they visit upon men, but would hope to love and pray for the individual as they met justice and the judgment of men.

Does God hate the wicked?

Enough to die for them.

 

[PlastikBuddha]

It is self-deceiving, self-defeating, and self-destructive. It distorts. It seperates us from God.
For those who can't understand the difference between loving Good and hating evil, however, I suppose it may the their only path towards the Divine.

 

[freelight]

brass tacks........

brass tacks........

Thankyou for this reply. Challenge is always good for me when it comes to my views. This particular topic seems to have captured my interest in quite the particular way, thus ... there must be Reason for it.

First, let's discuss Jesus' view .... in John 8 when the woman who committed adultery was brought before Jesus with the intent to, specifically said, tempt him ... it should be apparent to any human BEING that to have ACTUALLY tempted him, it had to be a woman whose adultery personally affected him, no? It is NOTHING for me to teach forgiveness when it comes to the sin of adultery as it pertains to a stranger ... but when it becomes a reality to me personally, forgiveness might not be quite as easy as it had once seemed. In fact, I should even wonder what right I would have to forgive the wrongs of one when they were not wrongs that were committed against me personally, but rather against another .. the "another" is the one who has the power to forgive or the RIGHT to NOT do such .... don't you think? That is Justice fulfilled, I would think.

For Jesus' forgiveness of that woman to have meant ANYTHING, it would have to be personal ... thus, to me, it obviously was his wife that committed the sin against him! Yup ... else, his forgiveness was not at all noteworthy to those living in reality ....

Now, with that in mind, notice his words to her after all had left and after he said he did not condemn her (most likely because he was often gone from her fulfilling his mission in life and he was able to relate to her loneliness without him as he was lonely w/out her as well) ... he said to her .. "go, and SIN NO MORE."

Had she committed again the act against him, what then would have been his reaction? Can you say for certain what course of justice he would have taken? No, you can not ... because she did become 101% committed to him and his cause as later seen in the gospel accounts.

Could you further identify Jesus wife? I'm sure traditional christians would be most interested

Anyways....with your hypothetical,....Jesus forgiveness would be more 'personal' of course,....yet his non-condemnation of this woman even if he did not know her...would be just as valid, assuming he knew by some real knowledge of the situation....and moved out with wisdom and compassion to emancipate the woman, and show the accusers that there themselves were not without sin. This event affected all involved, in their reconsideration of 'sin'.

I would not at ALL call it insanity if one whose LOVED one had been unjustly murdered were to seek the life of the murderer.

Again, how does murder remedy murder????? - back to my former points. Striking back from revenge, just perpetuates the cycle of violence and is hardly reformative or redemptive. Killing a murderer doesnt bring back the victim, neither does it necessarily do any good for the criminal, unless he is given the opportunity to pay for his crimes (in other ways besides death), be reformed/rehabilitated so he can learn from his evil ways and carry on the path of a good, useful productive life. My last 2 links cover this further. oly:

If the person who murdered could rob ONE of their life w/out JUST cause, then they are ALWAYS capable of robbing another of their life.

A solution to this is to detain/quarantine such persons, therefore a life-sentence in such cases assure this person does not get back out to commit more crimes. While in prison, criminals ought to have all resources available to them towards their REFORMATION, so they can learn from their mistakes and change their orientation. As far as policies of letting some prisoners go after serving their alotted time(unless having a 'life in prison' sentence)....that will have to be figured for the greater good of all.

Seek the good and not the evil! Sin does not exist without the sinner. Rid ourselves of the evil doers and we rid ourselves of the evil thus protecting the good, no?

Try solving the cause and proliferation of "sin" first...within the human psyche/heart and the whole societal structure of mankind, - that might be a good start, instead of killing sinners. Again,...ask your self how sane and humane that is.

What is Love's will for the sinner?

Love redeems, heals, restores, encourages, forgives, empowers, transforms. Love does no harm.

How are we seeking the Good to deny justice?

An 'eye for an eye', 'tooth for a tooth' is stuck in an old sub-standard version of imposed karmic justice,....however, Jesus offers what he feels is a better way. True justice transcends human-concepts of such(primitive eye for eye measures) and facilitates a way of redemption and restoration.




pj

 

[Katie]

For anyone to spend this much time defending hatred as a virtue and explaining why it's acceptable is kind of unfortunate.

Time well-spent in many other endeavors, squandered on defending hatred?

And this coming from people who claim to enjoy a relationship with the almighty.

It's enough to make me wonder why they're so baffled when I explain that I'm not interested in what they're selling...

I would think a lot of the confusion comes from misunderstanding that God is not like a man ... and that man is not God. God does not experience hate, we do. I know I would be wrong to say that God hated someone who might harm my children (God forbid!). God would not hate the sin and neither would He hate the sinner .... that would be ME. Society will not hate the person who would harm my children and in fact, in a lot of cases, these type of ppl are put in a place that only further enrages them and then they are set back free into the world to commit the crimes again.

So, is my hate of someone who IS evil (for he lives to harm the innocent) unfounded and wrong? That it is never allowed to reach its conclusion properly is what is wrong ... no?

NOW, whilst I COMPLETELY agree that it falls on the person with the hate to find resolution of some sort when their hate is left hanging due to lack of justice, I don't see it how it is fair to them, and even I see it as further victimizing them. Many GOOD ppl have been turned to unnatural ways of dealing with their hate when justice was left undone. Are they responsible for the natural consequences that are not paid for by the criminal but rather by the victims themselves? In a way, I think that is WHY there is a possibility that wisdom is to get rid altogether of those who are bent on committing evil toward others. Seek the good ... not the evil. We miss the forest for the trees to think that peace is the absence of hate and retribution. (of course, we .. NOT GOD .. are the ones who seek retribution in ALL cases and this I won't deny).

I am just thinking of the other side here .. that is all. It is easy to preach to one another what we THINK they "should do" in any given situation, but until you are willing to walk in their shoes, it means little. "Should be" generally lacks perspective ...

And one more clarification ... personally, when I find myself strongly disliking another because of what they say, to me that is a warning flag in my mind to step out of my own perspective so that I can try to see it from their point of view. Then, often I come to understand why they might believe something ... it is when enlightenment occurs. So, here again, the hate as an emotion serves a purpose toward seeking the good.

HATE HAPPENS ... why should we be expected to write it off as altogether evil? It is a natural emotion and thus, serves a purpose. The negative impact that we assume is hate has resulted from trying to deny it exists for a purpose. Denial is not the way to overcome hate and rather, it is understanding why it is there in the first place that allows us to use it for the good, no? And those that claim God hates have much in common with others who want to automatically say that hate is evil and not of God ... neither want to look at what is ... only what they think "should be."

Hate, in and of itself, is not evil .... and God does not Hate; we do.

 

[TeeJay]

Rusha, You're right. You don't believe that God exists. So, if no God exists then, for you, there is now word of God. That's logical, no?

What if I were to make a challenge to you? I can prove that God exists without using one period or one comma of the Bible. If you're interested, I will give you my email address, and we can begin.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Zeena]

Being that I am not a Christian, I think of Jesus as more of symbolic person than an actual one. Based on all the years of Bible reading (in parochial school and church) that I have done, I view the character of Jesus as the epitome of love ... NOT hatred.

And, you'd be just as RIGHT in that judgment as you have been throughout your entire post, less your decision to not believe on Jesus for the Salvation of your soul.

We have all done bad things in our lives, things we NEED to be NOT ONLY forgiven of, but CLEANSED of too. :dead:

Jesus said it best, I believe, when He spoke thus in the eighth chapter of the Gospel of John:

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they said unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

This is the TRUE and FAITHFUL Witness of the Father, our Creator, who created us because He LOVED us!
Jesus Christ did not come into the world to condemn sinners, but to SAVE them.

 

[freelight]

missing it

missing it

Should we hate the wicked?
Does God hate the wicked?

First.....this very question is not coming from a foundational knowledge or understanding that God is Love...and presumes a 'god' created in a distorted image of man's own temperments, emotions and capriciousness. A 'god' created after one's own 'ego'.

Since God is Love,.....Love cannot hate. Love can only Love. How can love hate? One does an injustice to Love(truth) assuming such.

Your own psychology has latched onto an image of a Hateful God, perpetuating itself thru a theology that reflects such. Did you ever consider or come to know Pure Unconditional Love? Did you ever consider Johns writing that says one cannot even know God if he does not love as God loves? Do you really know 'God' or just an 'image' you have of God?

'God' is not a hater (as so 'imagined' and 'assumed' in the mind of man....'God' is above such)



pj

 

[Zeena]

I would think a lot of the confusion comes from misunderstanding that God is not like a man ... and that man is not God. God does not experience hate, we do. I know I would be wrong to say that God hated someone who might harm my children (God forbid!). God would not hate the sin and neither would He hate the sinner .... that would be ME.

"ME..."

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Where else did you think you got your morality?

PEACE!

 

[TeeJay]

Town Heretic, I asked you if God hates the wicked? You answered, "Enough to die for them." But to make this cute little meaningless statement, you have to ignore: Prov. 23:27; Ps. 5:5; Ps. 5:6; Ps. 11:5; Ps. 34:16; Ps. 45:7; Ps. 139:20-22; Ho. 9:13; Lev. 26:27-30 2 Chron. 19:2 among many other similar passages. So, you would rather ignore God and what he thinks just to disagree with me. What have I ever done to you that would engender such anamosity? I have done nothing except to quote God?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[TeeJay]

Zeena, It's no use quoting Scripture to Rusha. Rusha does not believe God exists. So if no God exists, then there can be no word of God for Rusha. Rusha must first be convinced that there is a Creator God that exists. Which I can do without using the word of God. I pray that she will except my challenge.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Zeena]

Zeena, It's no use quoting Scripture to Rusha. Rusha does not believe God exists. So if no God exists, then there can be no word of God for Rusha.

And Who is the One to do the convincing?

1 Kings 18:41
And Elijah said unto Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain.

John 4:35-38
35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

 

[Town Heretic]

Town Heretic, I asked you if God hates the wicked?

You actually asked me several questions, but you chose the one you must have thought you could make hay with and are curiously silent on the others, which provided context for the one you took up. Ah, well.

You answered, "Enough to die for them." But to make this cute little meaningless statement,

If you want to classify a description of the passion as cute and meaningless, that's your call.

you have to ignore: Prov. 23:27; Ps. 5:5; Ps. 5:6; Ps. 11:5; Ps. 34:16; Ps. 45:7; Ps. 139:20-22; Ho. 9:13; Lev. 26:27-30 2 Chron. 19:2 among many other similar passages.

Not at all. You're simply ignoring my earlier writing on point. But if you want a scripture off...lain: 1 John 4:8; Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:7-11; John 3:16...I'm sure we could both keep setting out examples of God's attitude toward evil and men who entertain it, but only one of us appears to miss the fact that God in His righteousness must hate what God in His love extends mercy and grace to redeem through the sacrifice of Christ. I am not God and so, rather than spend myself in an imperfect attempt at hatred I concentrate myself in gratitude toward as perfect an expression of love as I am capable.

So, you would rather ignore God and what he thinks just to disagree with me.

I get that you're feeling righteous. I touched on that. I'm not arguing with God or His practice; I'm arguing with you over yours.

What have I ever done to you that would engender such anamosity?

So, you tell me I'm the sort of Christian who misleads others...that I must be ignoring God...and I'm the one with a temperamental difficulty? As in so much, you assume what you will within the context you need to make the point you came to the moment I failed to nod my head in agreement.

I have done nothing except to quote God?

Oh, you've done a great deal more than that...and the devil himself can quote scripture....and no, Tom, I don't think you're the devil.

 

[WizardofOz]

I am happy to say that I hate no one nor do I feel compelled to do so.

 

[Lighthouse]

You're arguing that its a good idea to hate PEOPLE. I do not forgive a BROTHER that does not repent, but a person that isn't a Christian? Sure.

Are you suggesting you're better than God? God hates all workers of iniquity, and He doesn't forgive those who have not repented.

Says the guy that thinks it is good to hate people and not forgive them unless they repent. I don't know what kind of wacky version of churches your lot belong to but if you read through this thread the atheists and agnostics get it better than you do!

So you think David was wrong? Psalm 139:19-22

You are driving people away from Christ with your attitude which is so far from Christ-like I really can't comprehend where you've gotten it from.

I'm telling people why they need Christ. If you just tell them they need Christ without telling them why they aren't going to listen to you.

Jesus did.

When and where?

Is that not a good enough reason for you?

You are either an idiot or a liar if you think Jesus ever did such a thing.

The "other side" in this thread is arguing that Christians should HATE those that do evil, but Christ tells us there is no reward for hating your enemies and loving your friends. Even Pagans do that. We are called to a higher standard.

one of us ever said anything about not loving our enemies. We should certainly love them. If we do not love those who do evil then we let them go to Hell, and that's a sin.

You and the others are proof texting in the extreme. You're using this one verse, poetry I might add, to argue against the very words of Christ.

Show me how I am arguing against the words of Christ. Go ahead.

And what difference does it make that it's poetry?

We receive and repent at the same time, there's no "I repent first so I can make myself good enough to receive Christ".

:bang:

I never said anything about making yourself good enough. There's no such thing.

Now, when does God forgive those who do not repent?

Have you ever seen Les Miserables or read the book? If you haven't, you need to.

I know, "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times."

 

[TeeJay]

You actually asked me several questions, but you chose the one you must have thought you could make hay with and are curiously silent on the others, which provided context for the one you took up. Ah, well.

If you want to classify a description of the passion as cute and meaningless, that's your call.

Not at all. You're simply ignoring my earlier writing on point. But if you want a scripture off...lain: 1 John 4:8; Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:7-11; John 3:16...I'm sure we could both keep setting out examples of God's attitude toward evil and men who entertain it, but only one of us appears to miss the fact that God in His righteousness must hate what God in His love extends mercy and grace to redeem through the sacrifice of Christ. I am not God and so, rather than spend myself in an imperfect attempt at hatred I concentrate myself in gratitude toward as perfect an expression of love as I am capable.

I get that you're feeling righteous. I touched on that. I'm not arguing with God or His practice; I'm arguing with you over yours.

So, you tell me I'm the sort of Christian who misleads others...that I must be ignoring God...and I'm the one with a temperamental difficulty? As in so much, you assume what you will within the context you need to make the point you came to the moment I failed to nod my head in agreement.

Oh, you've done a great deal more than that...and the devil himself can quote scripture....and no, Tom, I don't think you're the devil.

The reason I did not answer your first question is I did not want to hurt your feelings. I really did not understand what in the world you're trying to say. I thought perhaps FreeLight wrote it. Your first sentence: There's no should absent his repentance and inclusion in the body. What in the world does that mean?

I will answer the rest of your post in the morning. It's late and I'm tired.

I asked you does God hate the wicked? I gave you an abundance of Scriptre to show that He does. Why couldn't you just answer yes? Why did you have to ignore the Scripture and argue with me?

 

[Alate_One]

Are you suggesting you're better than God?

God sent his Son to DIE for those that hated him. I don't think I'm approaching that in any way. I really don't know why you would think that. :kookoo:

Just tell me what denomination you're in.

God hates all workers of iniquity, and He doesn't forgive those who have not repented.

Except when he died for them. And except for the fact that God is love . . . I mean other than that. No, He doesn't let the unrepentant into heaven. Just as we should not let the unrepentant into Christian fellowship.

So you think David was wrong? Psalm 139:19-22

I doubt the Psalmist was interested in distinguishing the actions from the person since that doesn't make good poetry. I hate the evil that is done, but I hope for the salvation of the evildoer.

I'm telling people why they need Christ. If you just tell them they need Christ without telling them why they aren't going to listen to you.

Well of course. . . .you don't forgive someone by telling them they didn't do anything wrong. *I* forgive them for wronging me and because God has forgiven my sins. I don't have the right, as a servant, to hold a grudge against another.

God is perfect and thus, has that right, though He chose to extend mercy to all through Christ while we hated God.

Matthew 18

Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

They must get right with God to be saved and forgiven by God.

When and where?

Luke 23

Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing

Mark 2

Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

You are either an idiot or a liar if you think Jesus ever did such a thing.

You're incapable of reading scripture then aren't you?

one of us ever said anything about not loving our enemies. We should certainly love them. If we do not love those who do evil then we let them go to Hell, and that's a sin.

Its not within our power to MAKE someone become a Christian. I can certainly give them the gospel but there's nothing on my or your part about "letting them go to Hell".

And what difference does it make that it's poetry?

It shouldn't be read as literally or strictly as direct statements from Christ or Paul's letters. QED- I wouldn't base the core of my theology on them.

Now, when does God forgive those who do not repent?

The forgiveness of salvation comes along with repentance.

I know, "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times."

That's "A Tale of Two Cities", Go watch the Les Miserables movie at least . . . .

 

[Lighthouse]

God sent his Son to DIE for those that hated him. I don't think I'm approaching that in any way. I really don't know why you would think that. :kookoo:

He sent Him to die for those He hated, because He loved them so much. And yet He does not forgive those who do not repent. So what makes you different than God that you can forgive them?

Just tell me what denomination you're in.

I'm not in a denomination. My affiliation is the same as Damascus Road Bible Fellowship and Denver Bible Church.

Except when he died for them. And except for the fact that God is love . . . I mean other than that. No, He doesn't let the unrepentant into heaven. Just as we should not let the unrepentant into Christian fellowship.

His dying for them was not His forgiving them. And how does the fact that God is love mean He forgives those who do not repent? That's just asinine.

I doubt the Psalmist was interested in distinguishing the actions from the person since that doesn't make good poetry. I hate the evil that is done, but I hope for the salvation of the evildoer.

And I don't hope for their salvation?

Well of course. . . .you don't forgive someone by telling them they didn't do anything wrong. *I* forgive them for wronging me and because God has forgiven my sins. I don't have the right, as a servant, to hold a grudge against another.

First off, who said anything about holding grudges?

And if you forgive someone if they don't already understand they did wrong how are they supposed to understand it? How are they supposed to understand that what they have done is bad? they must first understand they have done wrong before you forgive them. And if they truly understand that they they repent. How do you know they understand if they do not repent?

God is perfect and thus, has that right, though He chose to extend mercy to all through Christ while we hated God.

And? You think this makes a difference? We have been commanded to forgive those who repent. Where are we given the freedom to forgive those who do not?

Matthew 18

Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

They must get right with God to be saved and forgiven by God.

How does one get right with God? And why don't they need to make it right with you to receive your forgiveness?

Luke 23

Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing

I've already answered this one. They truly believed they were executing a guilty man. They had no reason to repent.

Mark 2

Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

They had faith, meaning they were repentant.

You're incapable of reading scripture then aren't you?

Seriously? That's your argument?

Its not within our power to MAKE someone become a Christian. I can certainly give them the gospel but there's nothing on my or your part about "letting them go to Hell".

If we have not done all that is within our power to keep them from going then we have let them go. I never said we sent them there, I only said we let them go. Just as if we do not stop our children from running out into the street.

It shouldn't be read as literally or strictly as direct statements from Christ or Paul's letters. i.e. I wouldn't base the core of my theology on them.

So David, a man after God's own heart, shouldn't be taken literally? You're an idiot.

The forgiveness of salvation comes along with repentance.

All forgiveness should come with repentance.

That's "A Tale of Two Cities", Go watch the Les Miserables movie at least . . . .

Oh yeah. I took drama in high school and there was a lot of talk about both, I got them mixed up. I don't like musicals.

 

[Town Heretic]

The reason I did not answer your first question is I did not want to hurt your feelings.

Surely. Your reputation for sensitivity is nearly legendary at this point, I'd think. But why should your reading comprehension level be a source of grief for me?

Let's see what you found so insufficiently prosaic...

I thought perhaps FreeLight wrote it. Your first sentence: There's no should absent his repentance and inclusion in the body. What in the world does that mean?

No, my first sentence was, "Completely up to her." Pretty wild grammar. Exotic even. lain: Now, for the second sentence, meant to further explain the straight forward answer you apparently forgot (so I'm darned if I do or don't reduce to the monosyllabic with you, practically) place emphasis on the word should as you read it aloud. Presumably you understand the reference to the body of which you are a part. In plainer English, we aren't compelled to forgive those who aren't in the body of Christ and are if they are and seek it.

I will answer the rest of your post in the morning. It's late and I'm tired.

Here's most of the rest, with explanation, just to jump the gun a bit for you.

In any event, her forgiveness has nothing to do with his salvation absent its example working to alter his perception of mercy, just as her condemnation would have been to no account unless it worked a change in him born of fear in judgment.​

What she does does not determine anything other than how she feels about him unless it alters him by observing her example in love. Similarly, a stern or unforgiving stance might work that change.

Some men, I suspect, have chosen the evil they find themselves in so throughly that they will never see their way out of it.​

McVeigh had a hardened heart, had rejected God to the point where he wasn't going to repent and believed himself justified.

McVeigh's own words paint him as such a man. So whatever she said to him, I hope that it helped her in her pain, because it could not reach him in his.​

:think: I can't think of a way to simplify this for you, so I hope you didn't have difficulty with it.

I asked you does God hate the wicked? I gave you an abundance of Scriptre to show that He does. Why couldn't you just answer yes?

Because it would be half an answer and while that doubtless satisfies whatever it is in your spirit that lives for judging others, it would be neither a complete nor honest answer.

Why did you have to ignore the Scripture and argue with me?

In order, I didn't argue with God or scripture, quoting a bit of it myself...and, as to the last, because I found your approach to that grandmother/victim repugnant, presumptive, a bit arrogant and suspiciously self righteous in tone.

Bless your heart. :e4e: