toldailytopic: Hell, what is it really like?

[elohiym]

just put him on ignore

By putting people on ignore, you miss what they say. Sometimes, even people you don't like can say things you may benefit from. If you ignore them, you lose any opportunity to benefit.

 

[elohiym]

Not at all. I question the notion that those who live in eternity with God will posses a memory of those who are not there.

Enjoying the Glory of God without loved ones and knowing that they are either annihilated or suffering eternally would not be peaceful or joyful or create an environment of everlasting happiness where there will no more pain or sorrow.

My response to you would be similar to this poster's response:

Our grief for "lost" loved ones will not exist because we will understand the will of the Creator and "see" that nothing is lost, we just did not understand the process of correction.

The alternative is induced amnesia, and I have many reasons for doubting that will happen.

 

[Traditio]

Reason demands . . . a possibility.

OK.

You've misunderstood me. Reason demands that we have a soul which is radically separate from our body. See St. Augustine, Avicenna, and Descartes on this point. Reason shows us that there's a really good reason to think that our souls might be and probably are immortal. See Plato. Morality almost demands that we are immortal. See Kant.

 

[elohiym]

The "idea" of heaven is to be one with God. I don't think we will have any concept of "self" if we attain this.

If we have no concept of self, then we cease to exist. To be one with God, yet have a sense of individuality, allows us to have fellowship with God and each other. The alternative is just God alone--no fellowship.

 

[Arthur Brain]

By putting people on ignore, you miss what they say. Sometimes, even people you don't like can say things you may benefit from. If you ignore them, you lose any opportunity to benefit.

True. That's one reason I don't. Not that I really expect to benefit anything from *some* here but you never know. Even inadvertently it can happen. Plus this is a debate forum and if we ignored all those who we disagree with or dislike there'd be little opportunity to oppose an argument....

I can certainly understand why people use the ignore function though...

 

[chrysostom]

By putting people on ignore, you miss what they say. Sometimes, even people you don't like can say things you may benefit from. If you ignore them, you lose any opportunity to benefit.

I miss most of what you say
and
that is to my benefit

 

[elohiym]

Reason shows us that there's a really good reason to think that our souls might be and probably are immortal. See Plato. Morality almost demands that we are immortal. See Kant.

In fact, the Bible subtly teaches that. We are all created in God's image and likeness and imbued with the breath of life, which is the Spirit of God. His spirit is immortal, and it is that aspect of a living soul (individual) that is immortal. That's an important distinction, because the soul is not immortal per se, just God's Spirit.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The problem is that man doesn't see himself as the sons of God; the majority of people remain in darkness to that fact, and so they will die like humans who are not immortal, unaware of the immortal Spirit that animates them.

Psalm 82:5-7

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

 

[elohiym]

I miss most of what you say
and
that is to my benefit

Any way I can help you. :e4e:

 

[elohiym]

I can certainly understand why people use the ignore function though...

Sure. And I can understand why children put their fingers in their ears and go "la la la la la la...I can't hear you!"

 

[unknown]

If we have no concept of self, then we cease to exist. To be one with God, yet have a sense of individuality, allows us to have fellowship with God and each other. The alternative is just God alone--no fellowship.

What greater fellowship than to be "with" God?

I believe most in this world see themselves as individuals (self) and not one creation. That is what is driving the whole process and it is good. but I'm not sure enough to argue about it.

more later....

 

[elohiym]

I believe most in this world see themselves as individuals (self) and not one creation.

Those aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Jesus was one with the father, yet he obviously expressed individuality.

 

[unknown]

Those aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Jesus was one with the father, yet he obviously expressed individuality.

exaclty,

I am not saying you are wrong. I probably should have said a "different concept of self".

I am trying to wrap my head around a concept that is new to me. That being, "there are only 2 things that exist, The Creator and the creation.". If I can maintain this viewpoint I can see more of the interconnectedness of the corporeal world. But that's a whole other thread.

peace

 

[zippy2006]

I largely agree with Traditio.

I like Lewis' portrait in The Great Divorce where everyone is given essentially what they want. Hell is a place of ghosts receiving exactly what they want (never God) and being eternally unsatisfied. The transparency and confused state of hell pales in comparison to the realness of Heaven, which contains all of hell in one small crack in the ground. When the damned visit Heaven (temporarily), they cannot even stand on the blades of grass, for the blades are too real and cut into their feet--the feet of souls who have become less than men, transparent, unreal.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I largely agree with Traditio.

I like Lewis' portrait in The Great Divorce where everyone is given essentially what they want. Hell is a place of ghosts receiving exactly what they want (never God) and being eternally unsatisfied. The transparency and confused state of hell pales in comparison to the realness of Heaven, which contains all of hell in one small crack in the ground. When the damned visit Heaven (temporarily), they cannot even stand on the blades of grass, for the blades are too real and cut into their feet--the feet of souls who have become less than men, transparent, unreal.

Er, why would anyone choose to be 'eternally unsatisfied'? If people get what they *want* then satisfaction would have to follow as a result. What you portray here is the antithesis of satisfaction. :squint:

 

[zippy2006]

Er, why would anyone choose to be 'eternally unsatisfied'? If people get what they *want* then satisfaction would have to follow as a result. What you portray here is the antithesis of satisfaction. :squint:

Why don't you ask a psychologist, I'm sure they could give you an inkling.

The seven deadly sins are no joke: wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

Why do people do any of these things, why do we engage in them at times? We may never really know why, only that it happens. lain:

I would also refer you to Trad's posts or his sources if you don't understand this.

 

[zippy2006]

Though Jesus, Who explained EXACTLY what hell will be like, rose from the dead, they believe not, but will have to find out for themselves, just like the rich man:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jesus also said: "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

You can't have smoke arising from torment, without continual torment. It is never going to end. It is quite obvious.

I would say it's fairly obvious that this is a parable. Jesus also descended into hell didn't He? If it becomes you to believe that God would have helpless creatures writhing in agony for eternity then have at it I suppose. lain:

Parables contain truth too, who cares if it is one? The message seems fairly obvious to me :idunno:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Why don't you ask a psychologist, I'm sure they could give you an inkling.

The seven deadly sins are no joke: wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

Why do people do any of these things, why do we engage in them at times? We may never really know why, only that it happens. lain:

I would also refer you to Trad's posts or his sources if you don't understand this.

I'm not asking a psychologist. I'm asking you. If you're arguing that people essentially get what they *want* then how on earth can they be unsatisfied with the result?! That does not make sense.There's all manner of reasons why people succomb to temporary sensual pleasures or negative behaviours. That doesn't equate to *choosing* an eternity away from God as we've been through so many times as it is. None of us are perfect in that regard lain:

And don't conflate a lack of agreement with a lack of understanding Zips. That was little more than a cheap shot and unworthy of you.

lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Parables contain truth too, who cares if it is one? The message seems fairly obvious to me :idunno:

Who says they don't? :idunno: You should care because if this is not a parable then your own view on hell is way off. Or does that not matter? I see a fairly obvious message too. Love your neighbour as yourself and don't be a selfish miserly git. Am I missing something? :idunno:

 

[zippy2006]

I'm not asking a psychologist. I'm asking you. If you're arguing that people essentially get what they *want* then how on earth can they be unsatisfied with the result?! That does not make sense.There's all manner of reasons why people succomb to temporary sensual pleasures or negative behaviours. That doesn't equate to *choosing* an eternity away from God as we've been through so many times as it is. None of us are perfect in that regard lain:

People often don't know what they want :idunno:

And don't conflate a lack of agreement with a lack of understanding Zips. That was little more than a cheap shot and unworthy of you.

lain:

If you understand the position then why are you so militantly opposed to it? It is a logical position that stands up to scrutiny (as our other discussion has shown). It is a position that values love and justice just as much as yours imo. I should think disagreement would be much less pronounced if you fully understand Trad and I's position. You point out that getting what we want should make us happy not unhappy, as if I have no intellect whatsoever :chuckle:. Give it a fair shake, obviously that isn't what I was saying and I think you know that.

I understand your militant opposition to the "eternal suffering" camp that take it a bit more literally as well as 'suffering' a bit more literally, but that is not me :idunno:

 

[zippy2006]

Who says they don't? :idunno: You should care because if this is not a parable then your own view on hell is way off. Or does that not matter? I see a fairly obvious message too. Love your neighbour as yourself and don't be a selfish miserly git. Am I missing something? :idunno:

Yes indeed I think you are missing something if that is all you pulled from it. There is quite a bit in there that has nothing to do with conduct and goes quite far into the topic of hell and its reality, especially the "gulf" that exists.