toldailytopic: Hell, what is it really like?

[chatmaggot]

But you would have peace if they were eternally tormented by God in a place called hell? :squint:

Not at all. I question the notion that those who live in eternity with God will posses a memory of those who are not there.

Enjoying the Glory of God without loved ones and knowing that they are either annihilated or suffering eternally would not be peaceful or joyful or create an environment of everlasting happiness where there will no more pain or sorrow.

 

[Traditio]

We seem to assume men are born with eternal souls. That idea did not come from the bible, but from Greek philosophers.

The key word here is "philosophers." It didn't come from Greek religion. The Greeks came to the idea through philosophy (rational argument). Reason demands that we have an incorporeal, possibly immortal soul.

 

[unknown]

So you believe that those who have eternal life with God will be aware of those that are not there?

I think that if I had to live eternally with the memory or the thought of a loved one that was annihilated then I would have no peace in heaven. Nor would I have contempt for those that were lost...but rather I would live eternally with a broken heart.

I kinda, sota agree with this......I think.

I personally feel that mankind is un-able to understand these things at present. I think this will end when mankind has "grown up".

It is like a father who wants his son to become a scientist, an actor, a musician, a political leader… the greatest, the most important person, say, a King’s son. Then the father teaches his son all the necessary things through various ways, using the best, the mildest method. And yet the son sees such an attitude as an oppressive and coercive method coming from his father.

While the son is still young, he lacks intellect, understanding and consciousness to realize why he is forced to do something, why all these things are necessary for his education.... The son is absolutely unable to justify his father; that is why he is called a “wicked one.” He calls his father a villain, as he doesn’t allow his son to enjoy in accordance with his level and forces him to improve himself all the time.

But the father performs all his actions towards his son with love and he suffers greatly seeing how much pain and sorrow his actions bring to his son. But the father has no other choice; he must raise his son up to the highest level and lead him to the absolute good. He cannot leave him in the undeveloped state, when he receives enjoyment only by playing with toys.

Thus, the son starts to perceive his own life as if it were Hell, while playing ball seems Heaven for him. But the father sees everything differently. What is to be done here?
_Michael Laitman

I think if man could understand the thought of creation, he would correct his desires to be like those of the Creator. The "idea" of heaven is to be one with God. I don't think we will have any concept of "self" if we attain this. Our grief for "lost" loved ones will not exist because we will understand the will of the Creator and "see" that nothing is lost, we just did not understand the process of correction.


This is just an opinion. see motto:

 

[Arthur Brain]

My "beliefs" are based upon what the Bible says. You want my answer, look it up. Are you going to hell with granite? He can't wait to get there.

So you can't answer then. As usual you just act like someone who's lost a winning lottery ticket. Considering how thoroughly unpleasant a character you are I'd sooner end up in any place where you aren't.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I hate to answer a question with another question (well ok, I don't really) but why the labor on Paul's part if he's preaching universal salvation? Why even need evangelists unless their job is to make everyone feel good by informing them that all are saved in Christ regardless of their beliefs?

Jesus is the Savior of all men because that is who God provided for ALL men in all times and cultures, even today 2000 years later. The point is he didn't provide Jesus for just the Jews, Mohammed for those in the Middle East, Buddha for those in the East, etc. Jesus is the savior of ALL men.

Having said that I do leave open the possibility of Jesus and the Gospel being contextualized for different cultures and not exactly looking the same in the East as it does in the West.

Is there only any point to evangelizing if it's to warn of either eternal suffering or annihilation? What about the hope and good news of God? Hope for those loved ones lost etc?

I appreciate that God provides for all peoples regardless of culture etc, but the verse explicitly specifies believers as especially partaking of salvation. If it's only believers that are 'saved' from death then God is only the potential saviour of all men.

 

[chrysostom]

this could be hell
and
we don't get out until we get it right

 

[chrysostom]

So you can't answer then. As usual you just act like someone who's lost a winning lottery ticket. Considering how thoroughly unpleasant a character you are I'd sooner end up in any place where you aren't.

just put him on ignore

 

[Krsto]

Is there only any point to evangelizing if it's to warn of either eternal suffering or annihilation? What about the hope and good news of God? Hope for those loved ones lost etc?

I appreciate that God provides for all peoples regardless of culture etc, but the verse explicitly specifies believers as especially partaking of salvation. If it's only believers that are 'saved' from death then God is only the potential saviour of all men.

Yes and had the apostle inserted "potential" it would have been more clear. His bad.

 

[Krsto]

this could be hell
and
we don't get out until we get it right

Well that's a cheery thought!

 

[Krsto]

The key word here is "philosophers." It didn't come from Greek religion. The Greeks came to the idea through philosophy (rational argument). Reason demands that we have an incorporeal, possibly immortal soul.

Reason demands . . . a possibility.

OK.

 

[chrysostom]

Well that's a cheery thought!

do you prefer eternal suffering?

 

[Krsto]

The "idea" of heaven is to be one with God. I don't think we will have any concept of "self" if we attain this.

I have often thought this and it seems this is what Jesus was getting at when he said: "You know not the scriptures nor the POWER of God." He said this in the context of those who wondered about former earthly relations (several former spouses) while they are one with God, the implication being if they had any experience with the power of God in oneness with him they wouldn't be asking stupid questions.

 

[Krsto]

do you prefer eternal suffering?

No, what I prefer is what the Muslims hope for, 72 virgins, but I believe we have a better hope than that and what you described. I don't believe in eternal suffering, BTW.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes and had the apostle inserted "potential" it would have been more clear. His bad.

Well that's a heck of an oversight isn't it? Why do you think the word "especially" was used at all if it's only believers that are saved? I think the verse is clear. It gets on rocky ground if we try to change a verse into what we think an apostle should have wrote as oppose to what they did doesn't it?

 

[Aimiel]

Though Jesus, Who explained EXACTLY what hell will be like, rose from the dead, they believe not, but will have to find out for themselves, just like the rich man:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jesus also said: "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

You can't have smoke arising from torment, without continual torment. It is never going to end. It is quite obvious.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Though Jesus, Who explained EXACTLY what hell will be like, rose from the dead, they believe not, but will have to find out for themselves, just like the rich man:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jesus also said: "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

You can't have smoke arising from torment, without continual torment. It is never going to end. It is quite obvious.

I would say it's fairly obvious that this is a parable. Jesus also descended into hell didn't He? If it becomes you to believe that God would have helpless creatures writhing in agony for eternity then have at it I suppose. lain:

 

[Nick M]

So you can't answer then.

I can and did.

As usual you just act like someone who's lost a winning lottery ticket. Considering how thoroughly unpleasant a character you are I'd sooner end up in any place where you aren't.

Hypocrite. And a liar. So what is new.

 

[Nick M]

I would say it's fairly obvious that this is a parable. Jesus also descended into hell didn't He? If it becomes you to believe that God would have helpless creatures writhing in agony for eternity then have at it I suppose. lain:

And once again you don't believe the Bible. Imagine that. You really better get used to the idea of writhing for eternity. There is no evidence here of the contrary.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I can and did.

No, you didn't. If you can then do so.

Hypocrite. And a liar. So what is new.

Throwing around insults is your stock in trade Nick. Hardly a substitute for an argument.

 

[Arthur Brain]

And once again you don't believe the Bible. Imagine that. You really better get used to the idea of writhing for eternity. There is no evidence here of the contrary.

I believe 1 Tim 4:10 Nick. Do you? It's 'funny' how the monstrous nature of the doctrine of eternal suffering sometimes rubs off on those who ascribe to it. Your empathy and compassion for people is once again non existent. lain:

Try reading Galatians Nick. It seems as though you missed it. :thumb: