The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[Hoping]

Not to be confused with the Twelve Apostles...

Not to be confused with the first twelve apostles.

Did you notice that scripture specifically ties the number twelve to the men who were baptized here? 12 is the number DIRECTLY associated with Israel.

Big deal.
Are we supposed too think of Israel when we buy eggs or donuts?

 

[Hoping]

Are you saying John's baptism washed away sins but, as in the case of the thief on the cross, sinners did not have to be baptized to be saved before Christ died?

John's baptism unto repentance did wash away past sins, but Jesus also had power on earth to forgive sins

Before Christ died baptism was not done with the same meticulous wording you call for so was it essential for salvation?

Yes, if one needed to be free of sin to be saved.

You are straining to get interpretations from scripture to match your erroneous doctrine, but your twists are easily reproved. Here is the record concerning Cornelius. Let's note a few things:

Which doctrine do you not understand?

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness but there is no mention here of the necessity for baptism to be accepted of God.

Isn't getting washed of old sins "righteous?
Or are you saying it is unrighteous to get washed of old sins by the blood of Christ? (I hope not.)

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
God sent witnesses to preach peace, not baptism.

Yet baptism was admonished before the end of the evening.
Was Peter disobeying his own exhortation?
By the way, was Peter also not supposed to teach concerning the gift of the Holy Ghost and loving God above all else too?

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
The word published after the baptism of John was not said to be a continuation of John's message of baptism.

Agreed.
Jesus' own command to baptize would have been enough for His disciples to continue it. (Matt 28:19)

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
God's messengers preached Jesus, not baptism.

They didn't in those verses.
They did in others verses though. (Acts 2:38, 8:12, 8:36-38, 22:16)

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
The Holy Ghost fell on those who believed and yet had not been baptized, proving baptism is not a prerequisite for being given a new spirit in Christ.

Agreed, but repentance from sin is.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins done immediately after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost does prove that the temple of the Holy Spirit must be cleaned.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There is no mention of baptism being a necessity for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Correct.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, however, is necessary for the remission of sins .

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Baptism serves as a testimony of salvation already received, not as a necessity before salvation will be given.

As long as it done in obedience to Jesus' command for the forgiveness of sins, other reasons added on by men later to do it are the ones that are inconsequential.

 

[Hoping]

Thank you. A simile, or more accurately, metaphor, is NOT the actual thing, but gives a picture of the actual thing.

Ha, I actually wrote "metaphor" first but changed it later.
"Planted" is a metaphor for the actual burial we partake of with Christ by the grace of God's gift of water baptism is the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

The baptism part was a figure. Noah was real. The reference to Noah was used to illustrate the point about baptism, how it didn't save the people on the ark by getting them covered with water, but the water cleansed the world for a rebirth.

It "saved them" by saving then from the wrath of God poured out onto sinners.
Noah's family "took part" in everything Noah took part in.
Just as we "take part" in all that Jesus took part in.
We are "immersed" into Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection the same as Noah's family were immersed in all that Noah was.

Which death hasn't happened yet.

So you are still alive in sin?
I am dead to sin, but my vessel was quickened by the Holy Spirit...after my death with Christ.

You've never died before. If you haven't died, no need for a burial. If you haven't died, you can't be resurrected. But you can appropriate Christ's death, burial, an resurrection to give you assurance (faith) of a resurrected existed after you die.

I believe it more literally.
I did die, was buried, and was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom:3-4)

Yet the way Christians argue on this site, not to mention other examples of less than Christ-like behavior elsewhere, tells you that all of the new creature stuff has not been completed, and won't be until the flesh dies and is resurrected. We are given a new mindset, in anticipation of the whole new creation we will be--it's assured and we can take it to the bank, metaphorically. But it isn't completed until this flesh has died and resurrected.

The reason you think it "has not been completed" is because those who disobey God are not Christians.
Those actually "in Christ" do obey Him.

I don't recall any suffering at my baptism. I didn't die. But I did associate myself with Christ's DBR at my baptism. I showed everyone around, and myself, that I claim Christ's DBR as applying to me--a figure of what Christ did.

You must have a difficult time understanding 1 Peter 4:1 then..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
How can you "have the same mind" as Jesus if you didn't actually experience what He experienced?
Gal 5:24 must also be bewildering to you..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
And Rom 8:9-10.

You didn't exist. Faith doesn't actually cause you to have existed back then in order to participate, no matter how hard you think it.

We differ on how we view the power of faith.

But you notice it doesn't say "who hath raised you from the dead." So we are buried with Him in a symbolic, figurative, metaphoric way, just as that verse illustrates.

It does say it..."...but ye are risen with Him..." (Col 2:12)

Nope
Because they haven't yet died? You've just put yourself in that category.

Because they have not died to sin.
They will suffer a second death on the day of judgement.

"Not seen" and "hoped for" are referring to things that haven't happened yet. No faith is required for things that have already happened, at least the way that verse uses the word. You don't hope for something that you already have.
Romans 8:24 KJV — For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

That is right, and what we have yet "to see" is our salvation.

Which would be worthless if Christ never died or rose from the dead.

True.

Yes, exactly. God has granted is the same new life as Christ--He has already been resurrected, you have not.

My vessel has yet to be raised at the appearing of Jesus Christ with His fiery angels.
My old self, however. is dead and gone.
I am a new creature now, thanks to the love and grace of God.

Try to focus on the actual act of Jesus' DBR as the mechanism for saving power rather than the figurative act of YOUR taking a bath, as if you've done something by it to earn His favor.

Obedience to God is all that will save a man.
That obedience is impossible when folks eliminate that which makes it possible.

 

[Hoping]

You don't understand Paul.

I understand those that have the same Spirit I have been given.

 

[Hoping]

Nope. Paul was talking about what John did.

He cited what John, and the twelve, had one done.
Then supplied the NT water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Two is not one. You mock God and His Word.

It is one baptism by men, and one by God, in the NT.
As there are at least half a dozen baptisms cited in the bible, are you saying none is real except the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

 

[Hoping]

Wrong.

I thought I wrote it earlier???

 

[JudgeRightly]

Not to be confused with the first twelve apostles.

Yes, that's who I'm talking about. Hence why I capitalized both words, referring to them by their collective name.

Big deal.
Are we supposed too think of Israel when we buy eggs or donuts?

Don't be dumb. Of course not.

But when we're studying scripture, the number twelve has significance. Twelve sons of Jacob, tribes of Israel, Apostles, thrones on which they will rule; and multiples of twelve, 144,000 jews sealed (12,000 from each tribe), 144 cubits thick are the dimensions of the walls of New Jerusalem, being 12,000 furlongs cubed in size... And that's just a few examples.

 

[Right Divider]

I understand those that have the same Spirit I have been given.

No member of the body of Christ receives the Spirit by getting wet.

 

[Right Divider]

He cited what John, and the twelve, had one done.
Then supplied the NT water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

You are just wrong.

It is one baptism by men, and one by God, in the NT.

Again, for the hard of hearing... Paul says that there is ONE baptism and no more.

As there are at least half a dozen baptisms cited in the bible, are you saying none is real except the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

There are many baptisms in the Bible, but only ONE is for the body of Christ.

Eph 4:5 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Cor 12:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Hoping]

Yes, that's who I'm talking about. Hence why I capitalized both words, referring to them by their collective name.



Don't be dumb. Of course not.

But when we're studying scripture, the number twelve has significance. Twelve sons of Jacob, tribes of Israel, Apostles, thrones on which they will rule; and multiples of twelve, 144,000 jews sealed (12,000 from each tribe), 144 cubits thick are the dimensions of the walls of New Jerusalem, being 12,000 furlongs cubed in size... And that's just a few examples.

Not really pertinent to the conversation.

 

[Hoping]

No member of the body of Christ receives the Spirit by getting wet.

Agreed.
But it does require a real repentance from sin.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins can come next.

 

[Hoping]

You are just wrong.

I disagree.

Again, for the hard of hearing... Paul says that there is ONE baptism and no more.

He did not say "and no more".

There are many baptisms in the Bible, but only ONE is for the body of Christ.
Eph 4:5 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
1Cor 12:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

If you feel you don't need to have your past sins washed away in the name of Jesus Christ, that is your choice.
My choice was to get baptized as soon as I could, as I truly desired the clean conscience Peter wrote of in 1 Peter 3:21.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Not really pertinent to the conversation.

Yes, it is entirely relevant.

The very fact that the number 12 is tied to those twelve men in Acts 19 means something. If it didn't matter, that detail would not have been included.

 

[Right Divider]

Agreed.

So... we get our sins forgiven without getting wet (i.e., water baptism).

But it does require a real repentance from sin.

This is a very confused topic and you fall into the confused category.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins can come next.

Wrong, as usual. There is ONE baptism for the body of Christ and it is NOT water baptism.

ONE is not more than ONE.

 

[Right Divider]

I disagree.

You continue to be incorrect.

He did not say "and no more".

Yes, he did. ONE means NOT more than ONE. One is ONE.

If you feel you don't need to have your past sins washed away in the name of Jesus Christ, that is your choice.

All of my sins were forgiven at the cross when Christ died for my sins. I got this forgiveness when I trusted in Christ.

My choice was to get baptized as soon as I could, as I truly desired the clean conscience Peter wrote of in 1 Peter 3:21.

This is your problem. Peter is NOT your apostle, Paul is.

 

[Derf]

Ha, I actually wrote "metaphor" first but changed it later.

"Planted" is a metaphor for the actual burial we partake of with Christ by the grace of God's gift of water baptism is the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

You've been put under ground in a grave or tomb?

It "saved them" by saving then from the wrath of God poured out onto sinners.
Noah's family "took part" in everything Noah took part in.
Just as we "take part" in all that Jesus took part in.

Which is why you have to put quotes around it--you were never flogged, had your beard pulled out, were required to carry your wooden cross, had nails driven into your hands and feet, had a spear thrust through your side, were taken down lifeless from a cross and buried in a tomb for three days. Never.

We are "immersed" into Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection the same as Noah's family were immersed in all that Noah was.

Noah's family actually had those things that happened to Noah happen to them.

You were only dead, buried, and raised vicariously--i.e., it didn't happen to you, personally, but to Christ on your account.

So you are still alive in sin?

Depends on what you mean. I'm alive, and I still sin, though I don't want to. I have the mind of Christ, but I don't have my resurrected body like He does.

I am dead to sin, but my vessel was quickened by the Holy Spirit...after my death with Christ.

Your vessel?

I believe it more literally.
I did die, was buried, and was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom:3-4)

Yet you will die, you will be buried, you will be raised from the dead. If you did all that already, and now you're going to have to do it again, how worthwhile was the first time through?
Romans 6:8 KJV — Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
I.e., we aren't living with Him now in that way, because the passage speaks of a future tense (we shall live with Him), nor have we died yet,
So death still exercises some dominion over you, but not Christ:
Romans 6:9 KJV — Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

So we should not act as though we are still bound by sin, leading to death, but as if we are dead to sin and already alive into God, as Christ is (that's what "reckon" means...act like this is already the case):

Romans 6:11 KJV — Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In light of that, this is how we should live:
Romans 6:12 KJV — Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body (mortal because it is going to die), that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The reason you think it "has not been completed" is because those who disobey God are not Christians.
Those actually "in Christ" do obey Him.

Your salvation has not been completed, because you haven't been resurrected. Obeying Christ is a good thing, but it doesn't get you resurrected before you die.

You must have a difficult time understanding 1 Peter 4:1 then..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
How can you "have the same mind" as Jesus if you didn't actually experience what He experienced?

Suffering in the flesh helps us understand/have the same mind better. But it doesn't save us. Nor is our suffering the same exact thing as what Christ suffered.

But to say you have been actually buried with Christ physically is nonsensical, since He was resurrected long before you existed. You couldn't be physically buried with a person who stopped being buried 2000 years before you were born.

Gal 5:24 must also be bewildering to you..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
And Rom 8:9-10.

Why? To have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts is metaphorically telling us not to allow those lists to continue or control us. You can't physically crucify something that isn't physical.

We differ on how we view the power of faith.

Faith in something that can't save is useless. There's no power in that to save us. That would be misplaced faith.

It does say it..."...but ye are risen with Him..." (Col 2:12)

And continues with:
through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Faith is in something God will do (something we still hope for) to us, like He did with Christ...resurrect us.

Because they have not died to sin.
They will suffer a second death on the day of judgement.

That is right, and what we have yet "to see" is our salvation.

True. Because our salvation includes the resurrection, which hasn't happened yet.

True.

My vessel has yet to be raised at the appearing of Jesus Christ with His fiery angels.
My old self, however. is dead and gone.
I am a new creature now, thanks to the love and grace of God.

Yes and no. You're a new creature that carries around the old creature's baggage.

Obedience to God is all that will save a man.
That obedience is impossible when folks eliminate that which makes it possible.

It's not your obedience that saves you--your obedience is worthless in helping you to rise from the dead.

 

[Clete]

If you feel you don't need to have your past sins washed away in the name of Jesus Christ, that is your choice.
My choice was to get baptized as soon as I could, as I truly desired the clean conscience Peter wrote of in 1 Peter 3:21.

The above highlighted sentence is all the evidence you need in order to know that Hoping does NOT care what the bible teaches. He cannot ever be convinced by ANY argument, no matter how convincing the argument should be. Hoping isn't interested in being convinced. He doesn't care whether his doctrine makes any sense. He believes what he believes and that's all there is to it.
Don't bother trying to explain why that sentence proves his dishonest motives. He isn't interested in learning. He isn't interested in thinking. His mental motor is emotion and has fully insulated himself against anything that resembles sound reason.

 

[Hoping]

Yes, it is entirely relevant.

The very fact that the number 12 is tied to those twelve men in Acts 19 means something. If it didn't matter, that detail would not have been included.

OK.
The numbers are just numbers to me.

 

[Hoping]

So... we get our sins forgiven without getting wet (i.e., water baptism).

No, we can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before we are water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Though it is only documented once in the bible.

This is a very confused topic and you fall into the confused category.

There is nothing confusing about the command to turn from sin. (Acts 2:38)

Wrong, as usual. There is ONE baptism for the body of Christ and it is NOT water baptism.
ONE is not more than ONE.

Yes, only one performed by God.

 

[Hoping]

You continue to be incorrect.

... according to what you believe.

Yes, he did. ONE means NOT more than ONE. One is ONE.

OK.

All of my sins were forgiven at the cross when Christ died for my sins. I got this forgiveness when I trusted in Christ.

The key there was "in Christ"
I too received remission of my past sins "in Christ" when I was water "immersed" into Him and into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)
Being dead with Him allowed my sinless perfection. (Rom 6:7)

This is your problem. Peter is NOT your apostle, Paul is.

They are all "Jesus'" apostles.
I profit from all of them, and all of their writings.