The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

Hoping

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Or perhaps neither,
Doubtful, as "neither" can't satisfy Rom 6:5's "planted together with Christ".
since Peter indicates it isn't about the washing if the flesh, but the cleansing if the conscience.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Chr5ist for the remission of sins is the means of both washings, as I see in 1 Peter 3:21..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
We can get the "good conscience towards God" by the resurrection of Christ.
That is the second part of Rom 5:5..."resurrected together with Christ".
Crucified with Him, buried with Him, and raised with Him...at our water baptism "into Him".
Something more than water is needed. What is needed is to be dead to sin, so that we don't live any longer therein. We are dead to sin only when we identify with Christ's death, and we are raised to walk, not by coming out of the water, but by recognizing our new position in Christ. Water baptism is a perfect picture of that process, and thus is good for all believers to submit to.
Why just "identify with it" when you can partake in it.
As it is written..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:3-4)
Your "more" that is needed is faith.
 
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Hoping

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If sinners must be baptized to be saved then why did Jess tell the thief on the cross he was going to heaven? Will there be sinners in heaven who never had their sins washed away by water?
Because Jesus had not yet been raised from the dead.
We are baptized into His death, burial and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-4)
Jesus had yet to die, be buried, and be resurrected.
The thief would do physically what we do by faith.

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins, and thankfully, so too can we now forgive those who sin against us.
 

Hoping

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Verse 5 is talking about what John did, not what Paul did.
I disagree, as John never baptized anyone in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
John baptized unto repentance from sin for the remission of sins. (Luke 1:77, 3:3, Mark 1:4)
 

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I disagree, as John never baptized anyone in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
John baptized unto repentance from sin for the remission of sins. (Luke 1:77, 3:3, Mark 1:4)
That you believe that they needed water baptized twice is quite silly.

The body of Christ has ONE baptism and there is not a drop of water involved. I hope that you will join us some day.

Eph 4:5 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Cor 12:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

That is what the Bible says. Believe it or not.
 

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I disagree, as John never baptized anyone in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
John baptized unto repentance from sin for the remission of sins. (Luke 1:77, 3:3, Mark 1:4)
Acts 19:4-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (19:5) When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Verse 4 means just that. It's clear that you have no idea what the idiom "in the name of" means.
 

marke

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Because Jesus had not yet been raised from the dead.
We are baptized into His death, burial and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-4)
Jesus had yet to die, be buried, and be resurrected.
The thief would do physically what we do by faith.

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins, and thankfully, so too can we now forgive those who sin against us.
Are you saying John's baptism did not wash away the sins of sinners before Christ died but that water does wash away the sins of sinners after Christ died? When did Cornelius get saved, when he was given the Holy Spirit, or after he was baptized?
 

Derf

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Doubtful, as "neither" can't satisfy Rom 6:5's "planted together with Christ".
Neither CAN satisfy Rom 6:5's "planted together with Christ". "Planted" refers to being buried. Baptism of the spirit doesn't do it, as it works on something besides your body. Water baptism doesn't do it--it works on yourbody, but it isn't a burial, just a symbol.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Chr5ist for the remission of sins is the means of both washings, as I see in 1 Peter 3:21..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The baptism isn't the means, it's just a picture ("figure" as Peter puts it) of what is happening to the mind/will. But it's a useful picture.
We can get the "good conscience towards God" by the resurrection of Christ.
How?
That is the second part of Rom 5:5..."resurrected together with Christ".
Crucified with Him, buried with Him, and raised with Him...at our water baptism "into Him".
So now you're saying we need to be actually crucified? Or is it figurative? Tell me how many Christians have ACTUALLY been crucified. Have you?
Why just "identify with it" when you can partake in it.
Yeah, like getting yourself crucified.
As it is written..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
We were "baptized into His death", but we haven't yet participated in adeath, at least those of us who are still alive.
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:3-4)
Your "more" that is needed is faith.
No, faith without the real object of the figurative language is worthless. Consider it this way...what if the Israelites were told to keep doing the passover celebration for 1500 years, then Christ never died? How useful would faith in those acts of ritual be? None at all. After being baptized in the Red Sea under Moses, what if Christ never rose from the dead? How useful would faith in that baptism be? What about your baptism? If Christ never rose from the dead, wouldn't your faith in baptism be useless? "Vain" is the word Paul uses.
1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV — And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
He was talking to baptized people. Their baptism was worthless without Christ's death and resurrection.
 

Hoping

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That you believe that they needed water baptized twice is quite silly.
And yet Paul baptized the twelve at Ephesus (Acts 19), again.
The body of Christ has ONE baptism and there is not a drop of water involved. I hope that you will join us some day.
Eph 4:5 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One done by men, or one done by God.
1Cor 12:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
That is what the Bible says. Believe it or not.
I believe it.
Do you believe 1 Cor 6:11?
"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
"And by" the Spirit of our God.
I hope you saw the "in the name of the Lord Jesus" part too, as that is the name in which we are water baptized for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)
 

Hoping

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Acts 19:4-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (19:5) When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Verse 4 means just that. It's clear that you have no idea what the idiom "in the name of" means.
Just as I wrote earlier.
 

Hoping

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Are you saying John's baptism did not wash away the sins of sinners before Christ died
No, not at all, as it did just that.
but that water does wash away the sins of sinners after Christ died?
Water does wash away past sins, if done in the name of Jesus Christ, or the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost.
That is how baptism is done since the death and resurrection of Christ.
When did Cornelius get saved, when he was given the Holy Spirit, or after he was baptized?
Both were done within minutes of each other, and since his salvation won't be shown until the day of judgement, both "will" be instrumental in his salvation.
That is, as long as he maintains his repentance from sin.
 

Hoping

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Neither CAN satisfy Rom 6:5's "planted together with Christ". "Planted" refers to being buried.
Yes it does.
Baptism of the spirit doesn't do it, as it works on something besides your body.
Agreed.
Water baptism doesn't do it--it works on yourbody, but it isn't a burial, just a symbol.
"Planted" is a simile for burial.
The baptism isn't the means, it's just a picture ("figure" as Peter puts it) of what is happening to the mind/will. But it's a useful picture.
If it is just a figure, then so was Noah's ark.
The scripture says..."the like figure", so if one is just a picture so is the other.
Both are real events necessary for salvation.
By your death, burial, and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life.
The old sinful man was destroyed, (Ro 6:6), and you were raised with Christ as a cleansed new creature. (Rom 6:4)
The wages of sin is death, (Rom 6:23), and you suffered yours for your sins at your "immersion" into Christ's death. (Rom 6:3-6)
So now you're saying we need to be actually crucified? Or is it figurative? Tell me how many Christians have ACTUALLY been crucified. Have you?
Were you "in Christ" at His crucifixion, burial, and resurrected with Him to walk in newness of life?
I was, by faith in the operation of God.
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12)
Yeah, like getting yourself crucified.
Did you deserve better?
We were "baptized into His death", but we haven't yet participated in adeath, at least those of us who are still alive.
Then they will suffer a second death.
No, faith without the real object of the figurative language is worthless.
Heb 11:1 says otherwise..."Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Consider it this way...what if the Israelites were told to keep doing the passover celebration for 1500 years, then Christ never died? How useful would faith in those acts of ritual be? None at all.
Agreed, but God would see they had kept the faith and were still waiting for the Christ.
After being baptized in the Red Sea under Moses, what if Christ never rose from the dead? How useful would faith in that baptism be?
As the Jews were never told that they were being "baptized" into the sea or into Moses, (as that wasn't revealed until Paul wrote 1 Cor. 10:2), they had nothing to have faith in.
What about your baptism? If Christ never rose from the dead, wouldn't your faith in baptism be useless?
Yes, but He was raised from the dead, and God has granted us the same new life...if we are "in Christ".
"Vain" is the word Paul uses.
1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV — And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
He was talking to baptized people. Their baptism was worthless without Christ's death and resurrection.
Certainly.
Thanks be to God for water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, whereby our past sins have been washed away and our old man of the flesh was destroyed.
 

marke

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No, not at all, as it did just that.
Are you saying John's baptism washed away sins but, as in the case of the thief on the cross, sinners did not have to be baptized to be saved before Christ died?
Water does wash away past sins, if done in the name of Jesus Christ, or the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost.
That is how baptism is done since the death and resurrection of Christ.
Before Christ died baptism was not done with the same meticulous wording you call for so was it essential for salvation?
Both were done within minutes of each other, and since his salvation won't be shown until the day of judgement, both "will" be instrumental in his salvation.
That is, as long as he maintains his repentance from sin.
You are straining to get interpretations from scripture to match your erroneous doctrine, but your twists are easily reproved. Here is the record concerning Cornelius. Let's note a few things:

Acts 10

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness but there is no mention here of the necessity for baptism to be accepted of God.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
God sent witnesses to preach peace, not baptism.

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
The word published after the baptism of John was not said to be a continuation of John's message of baptism.

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
God's messengers preached Jesus, not baptism.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
The Holy Ghost fell on those who believed and yet had not been baptized, proving baptism is not a prerequisite for being given a new spirit in Christ.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There is no mention of baptism being a necessity for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Baptism serves as a testimony of salvation already received, not as a necessity before salvation will be given.

 

Derf

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Yes it does.

Agreed.

"Planted" is a simile for burial.
Thank you. A simile, or more accurately, metaphor, is NOT the actual thing, but gives a picture of the actual thing.
If it is just a figure, then so was Noah's ark.
The scripture says..."the like figure", so if one is just a picture so is the other.
Both are real events necessary for salvation.
The baptism part was a figure. Noah was real. The reference to Noah was used to illustrate the point about baptism, how it didn't save the people on the ark by getting them covered with water, but the water cleansed the world for a rebirth.
By your death, burial, and resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Which death hasn't happened yet. You've never died before. If you haven't died, no need for a burial. If you haven't died, you can't be resurrected. But you can appropriate Christ's death, burial, an resurrection to give you assurance (faith) of a resurrected existed after you die.
The old sinful man was destroyed, (Ro 6:6), and you were raised with Christ as a cleansed new creature. (Rom 6:4)
Yet the way Christians argue on this site, not to mention other examples of less than Christ-like behavior elsewhere, tells you that all of the new creature stuff has not been completed, and won't be until the flesh dies and is resurrected. We are given a new mindset, in anticipation of the whole new creation we will be--it's assured and we can take it to the bank, metaphorically. But it isn't completed until this flesh has died and resurrected.
The wages of sin is death, (Rom 6:23), and you suffered yours for your sins at your "immersion" into Christ's death. (Rom 6:3-6)
I don't recall any suffering at my baptism. I didn't die. But I did associate myself with Christ's DBR at my baptism. I showed everyone around, and myself, that I claim Christ's DBR as applying to me--a figure of what Christ did.
Were you "in Christ" at His crucifixion, burial, and resurrected with Him to walk in newness of life?
I was, by faith in the operation of God.
You didn't exist. Faith doesn't actually cause you to have existed back then in order to participate, no matter how hard you think it.
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12)
But you notice it doesn't say "who hath raised you from the dead." So we are buried with Him in a symbolic, figurative, metaphoric way, just as that verse illustrates.
Did you deserve better?
Nope
Then they will suffer a second death.
Because they haven't yet died? You've just put yourself in that category.
Heb 11:1 says otherwise..."Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
"Not seen" and "hoped for" are referring to things that haven't happened yet. No faith is required for things that have already happened, at least the way that verse uses the word. You don't hope for something that you already have.
Romans 8:24 KJV — For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Agreed, but God would see they had kept the faith and were still waiting for the Christ.
Which would be worthless if Christ never died or rose from the dead.
As the Jews were never told that they were being "baptized" into the sea or into Moses, (as that wasn't revealed until Paul wrote 1 Cor. 10:2), they had nothing to have faith in.

Yes, but He was raised from the dead, and God has granted us the same new life...if we are "in Christ".
Yes, exactly. God has granted is the same new life as Christ--He has already been resurrected, you have not.
Certainly.
Thanks be to God for water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, whereby our past sins have been washed away and our old man of the flesh was destroyed.
Try to focus on the actual act of Jesus' DBR as the mechanism for saving power rather than the figurative act of YOUR taking a bath, as if you've done something by it to earn His favor.
 
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