The Personal Side of the Homosexual Debate

[Arthur Brain]

Nothing to add...this pretty much covers it. Even the brainless moron (Red77) (Arthur Brain) admits nobody would "choose such a thing". He says they are born this way, because nobody would choose such a thing.

Well hey, thanks for yet another amazing insight there Nick, although I do feel compelled to point out that heterosexuals don't normally say they 'choose' to feel attracted to the opposite sex, unless you did?

:think:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

AA offers support and a support group, a place to talk with people who suffer from alcoholism. Its not a treatment or a cure, because there is no such thing. In this, alcoholism is like homosexuality. When an alcoholic feels like drinking they call their sponsor or talk with someone from their support group. And an alcoholic will tell you, once an alcoholic always an alcoholic, yet many stay clean and sober for years, even decades.

Homosexuals need the same thing. Not some shock therapy or drugs, but a support group. The truly tragic thing here is that liberals and democrats have lied and convinced people that there is nothing wrong with this disorder of same sex attraction, so there is no support groups for the ones that seek them.


Or IS there................... ? ? ?



Welcome to "Courage" - http://couragerc.org/


About Courage

Courage is an international apostolate of the Catholic Church, which ministers to persons with same-sex attractions.

Persons with homosexual desires have always been with us; however, until recent times, there has been little, if any, formal outreach from the Church in the way of support groups or information for such persons. Most were left to work out their path on their own. As a result, they found themselves listening to and accepting the secular society’s perspective and opting to act on their same-sex desires.

His Eminence, the late Terence Cardinal Cooke of New York, was aware of, and troubled by this situation. He knew that the individual dealing with same-sex attractions truly needed to experience the freedom of interior chastity and in that freedom find the steps necessary to living a fully Christian life in communion with God and others. He was concerned that many would not find this path and would be constantly trying to get their needs met in ways that ultimately do not satisfy the desires of the heart.

In response to this concern, he decided to form a spiritual support system which would assist men and women with same-sex attractions in living chaste lives in fellowship, truth and love. Knowing of Fr. John Harvey’s extensive ministry experience in this field, he invited him to come to his Archdiocese. With the help of the Rev. Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R., and others, Fr. Harvey began the Courage Apostolate with its first meeting in September, 1980 at the Shrine of Mother Seton in South Ferry.

With the endorsement of the Holy See, Courage now has more than 100 Chapters and contact people world-wide, over 1500 persons participating in its ListServs, and hundreds of persons per week receiving assistance from the main office and website. It has become a mainstream Catholic Apostolate helping thousands of men and women find peace through fellowship, prayer, and the Sacraments.

 

[Nick M]

Well hey, thanks for yet another amazing insight there Nick, although I do feel compelled to point out that heterosexuals don't normally say they 'choose' to feel attracted to the opposite sex, unless you did?

Of course not. I don't choose to eat, but I choose to not eat concrete. In fact, the thought of it is repulsive. Take note all you homo lovers. He again admits being a homo is bad, because nobody would choose to be that way. He has said this many times.

 

[Frank Ernest]

We all know the theological/ scriptural reasons why homosexuality is sinful; it would be repetitious to start another thread on that topic from that perspective.

What about your own personal feelings?

For me, the idea of same sex attractions seems only understandable in the abstract. I mean to say, I always liked women as friends, share many same interests, but sexual attraction seems hard to comprehend. It feels naturally repulsive, not the fondness, but the physical encounter. I see no way anyone can socially condition me to have the same feeling towards women as I have, since about age 12, for boys/men.

I do not think it can be indoctrinated anymore than I could be trained to bay at the moon?

When I was young, homosexuals were called queer, which means odd, or abnormal, funny-odd. The British called them faggots, and cigarettes fags; later, faggot was the more familiar term in the USA, as well, more derogatory.

I cannot believe that this odd nature is not caused by a genetic, or abnormal biological components.

My reason for posting this is because I feel drowned out by the extremes of other posts on this topic, or it is well discussed as a religious topic.

I post this here so anyone may respond with their persona; view. Let’s leave the obvious religious aspect for a thread aimed at that frame of discussion. I also ask to leave the hard hateful responses to be left in he long-standing thread.

How you personally feel about homosexuality?

Homosexual behavior among human beings is an aberration of nature.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Homosexual behavior among human beings is an aberration of nature.

Correct.

Consider this: What is the most base instinct of any species? It is procreation, which falls under the category of survival. As the saying goes, the birds do it and the bees do it.

Since procreation is the most base instinct for any species, it therefore follows that any human being who has an aversion to copulating with the opposite sex is suffering from some sort of disorder. Its unnatural as you noted.

 

[PureX]

As with anything, the reality of homosexuality is both complex, and a matter of degrees. There will be some people who are born unequivocally homosexual. They will be as repulsed by the idea of heterosexual sex as many heterosexuals are repulsed by the idea of homosexual sex. There will be others who have been so damaged by sexual and identity abuse growing up that they have come to identify themselves with homosexuality even though they may not have been born into that inclination. And there are many, many folks who are variably bisexual in their natural inclinations.

My personal feeling is that we put far too much emphasis on sexual orientation in this country, mostly because we are so prone to using bias and bigotry as a mechanism of self-esteem and identity building through group affiliation. And it happens on every side of the issue. I have known plenty of gay people who are just as biased and bigoted as the most vile homophobe.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

I looked it over. I am so not interested in reading through that. People have lost their jobs and businesses, it is terrible. We have to take a stand as Christians though. We must be willing to lose everything for the sake of Christ.

Be prepared to lose your freedom and even your life.

I have faith and works that flow out as evidence of my faith. Just because my works do not include name calling, attacking others and expecting a godless government to have laws in place which uphold true Biblical morals, does not mean I do not have works.

We are already on our way down the slippery slope and it is just getting worse. I believe that things will continue in this manner until the return of Christ. The only way we will see a change in direction is if there is a revival. I think that God has withdrawn His hand from North America. We see Christianity shrinking in influence and conversions here, but in other parts of the world, it is exploding and overall, it is growing. As North Americans, we are so self centred as to think we are the end all and the be all....we have reaped what we have sown.

How sad. So many good people fought and died for our freedoms and you're going to just sit back and let evil take over.

God expects more from His people. Hopefully someday you'll see that before it's too late.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

There will be some people who are born unequivocally homosexual.

Obviously you didn't hear the news PureX:

Unequivocally, there is no "gay gene".

 

[csuguy]

Um, well no, there's no way I could get attracted to a piece of plastic, plasticine or any form of inanimate object. There's no way I could 'choose' to do so either. If there's extremity of condition attached then that renders conscious choice invalid anyway.

More precisely - you could never see a situation where you would make such a choice - to make yourself attached to it. Whether you could or not you don't really know.

And extremity of condition doesn't necessarily invalidate conscious choice. Providing that the person has not gone insane or something, an extremity of condition merely forces one into making difficult decisions - a true test of character.

There's no real evidence (unless you can provide some) that homo or bisexuality isn't actually a part of nature already.

There's no evidence in favor of the idea that homosexuality is genetic, and the very idea contradicts the very basis from which it might be supposed to arise - so the position that it is not genetic/natural very clearly makes more sense.

Well, how do you 'will' to enjoy a piece of music, be involved in a film, be attracted to anything? How is any of that and more an actual conscious choice on your part?

I can get myself to enjoy a piece of music that I wouldn't normally listen to by learning to sing/play it. Example: I don't normally care for listening to instrumentals, but I can enjoy them if I learn to play them on the guitar. I can't choose to be involved in any film since it is up to other people who gets to be involved in the film - unless I'm the one creating it. This second one is a strawman.

What exactly makes you think you're so informed?

I think you misunderstood my statement. When I said you wouldn't know unless informed - I meant that you wouldn't know if some individual was a pedophile unless you were informed. For instance: think of the various priests who have been involved in such scandals. Do you think parents would have left their kids with them if it was obvious that these specific priests were pedophiles?

Um, it wouldn't matter to me who handed me a pizza with a load of jam on top of it. I'd be sending it back no matter who delivered it as there's no way I could possibly 'choose' to enjoy it. It seems to be you who is missing the point here.

First off, I didn't say pizza with jam - I said just pizza, whatever kind you love. Second off, I said you care who hands it to you for the sake of the analogy alone. Please pay attention.

Okay, you tell me when you first started choosing to like girls and lets take the argument from there. Or, explain how you can start choosing to like men instead, or wallpaper or Ferris wheels and whatever. It seems to me you want to make this predominantly about 'choice' but yet don't want to admit to actually 'choosing' anything yourself.

I never said it is all about choice, I've acknowledged that there are plenty of subconscious elements that come into play in this subject - I merely argue that the conscious plays more of a role than people like you are willing to acknowledge. My generic attraction to woman was not a choice - it was nature/nuture, though my specific taste in women is a reflection of my character and beliefs, which are subject to my choice. If I really wanted to - I could test my heterosexuality, but I view that as immoral and so I won't.

I've also already provided an argument for how one might go from a hetersexual to bi-sexual or even homosexual - by adopting a stance that sex is purely about pleasure and through progressive experimentation break down the psychological restraints surrounding the idea of homosexuality. Once you become comfortable with the ever more deprived acts you open up to the idea.

Yet there's evidence of it in nature, and it wouldn't need to be the main drive to stop procreation from happening anyway.

A gay gene would most certainly prevent procreation from happening if it existed, for the obvious reason.

 

[PureX]

Obviously you didn't hear the news PureX:

Unequivocally, there is no "gay gene".

That's because there is no such news. And there need not necessarily be one gene behind such a complex inclination as sexual attraction.

 

[Quincy]

Well, in fairness I was just trying to point out that the female form is generally regarded as the more aesthetically pleasing of the two genders...

I know, my friend, I know. I just felt like it was a good place to point out real delusions or aberrations like anorexia, off topic as it may be.

 

[Buzzword]

So apparently, way too many people around here aren't familiar with the fact that Argument From Incredulity is a FALLACY.
Your personal inability to understand something (including your disgust for it) does not make the thing irrational or aberrant.

Sexuality, like politics and other things we like to argue about with generalizations, exists on a set of spectra.
These include what gender we are attracted to, personality type attraction, body type attraction, age preference, etc etc.

Each of us operates somewhere on the gender-attraction spectrum between "homosexual" and "heterosexual".
We use the term "bisexual" to describe someone who is at about the halfway point on the spectrum, but that's merely one of a potentially infinite number of points.

For example, a man who is physically and emotionally only attracted to other men, yet also has an appreciation for the female form or for the unique emotional contribution his female friends make in his life.

Sexuality is so complex an aspect of human behavior that it would be impossible to assign terminology to every single individual set of spectra.

But too many people (especially on TOL) seem to forget (or deliberately ignore) the complexity of their own sexuality when speaking of others' sexuality in ridiculously simplistic terms.

I'm not just attracted to women.
I'm attracted to women who are curvy, more mature than I am, musically inclined, have long hair, have piercing eyes, love Classic Rock, and are willing to drive on road trips because I fall asleep easily during long car rides.
I will not be content with less.

On an unrelated note, I have just described my wife.

A gay friend of mine isn't just attracted to men.
He's attracted to men who enjoy sports, love to see live music, have starlight-blue eyes, make a point of not caring about fashion, and who can fill out a flannel shirt.

...and yes, I just called him and asked, and yes, he just described his boyfriend.

It isn't just because daddy didn't love (or loved too much in the wrong way) that boys grow up attracted to other boys.
And it isn't just because daddy cheated on mommy and mommy spent years talking about boys and men being evil that girls grow up attracted to other girls.
That it occasionally happens does not make it the universal cause.


Clearly too many people here cannot understand (or refuse to acknowledge) just how complex sexuality is, so rather than examine yourselves and acknowledge that everyone possesses the same complexity, you would rather throw ignorant blanket statements upon others (who by the way aren't even here to defend themselves) again and again in hopes of finding validation.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

That's because there is no such news. And there need not necessarily be one gene behind such a complex inclination as sexual attraction.

If there is no 'gay gene', then what causes homosexual attraction?

What's important is that those who engage in homosexual behavior can change. We've seen it with 10's of thousands of "ex gays".

I would hope that you'd jump on board and congratulate them for leaving such a destructive lifestyle behind.

 

[Sherman]

Too religious. Start your own thread under religion if your response is limited to religion.

What feelings do you, as a person, have about homosexuality?
That is the topic.

I have a natural hard wired revulsion toward it. I believe that is how God designed every human being.
Homosexuality is a dysfunctional addictive behavior as are many of the sexual sins out there. Once a person is snared, it is hard for them to extricate themselves.

 

[noguru]

If there is no 'gay gene', then what causes homosexual attraction?

What's important is that those who engage in homosexual behavior can change. We've seen it with 10's of thousands of "ex gays".

I would hope that you'd jump on board and congratulate them for leaving such a destructive lifestyle behind.

For females, probably men like you, who are deceitful and overbearing on the surface but deep down inside cowardly and little in regard to understanding.

I do agree that they can change, but it takes something different than just repeating half truths and inaccuracies to do that. It takes a real effort at understanding and trying to be more accurate in reporting things.

 

[The 5 solas]

Be prepared to lose your freedom and even your life.

We should all be prepared to do so, for the sake of Christ.
John 12:25

How sad. So many good people fought and died for our freedoms and you're going to just sit back and let evil take over.

God expects more from His people. Hopefully someday you'll see that before it's too late.

Honestly, are you brain dead? I am sorry but you seem thick as a brick. If you have actually read my posts and can sit there all pompous and say that I sit back and let evil take over, then you have cognitive issues.

I am an active Christian in my church, community, province, country and overseas in fact. Just because I am not self-righteously pointing my fingers at homosexuals or any other group of sinners, condemning them to hell, does not mean I am not fulfilling my role which God has called me to serve Him.

Our calling is not to sit piously on a throne of judgement. The Word of God and their own sin judges them already. We should be sharing the gospel with people, regardless of the nature of their sin and calling them to repentance.
2 Corinthians 5:20
"Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

I am not some bleeding heart either...come on, I am a Calvinist, you know the stereotype, the frozen chosen. :rotfl:
However, I understand, unlike you for some reason, that sharing the gospel and calling people to repentance is exactly what we should be doing as Christians. It is called, the great commission, ever heard of it?

We can do this in a variety of ways, which should not be sinful and disgrace the name of Christ, like being hateful, calling names, demeaning people,but rather, bring honour to Him. We can shout it from the rooftops, we can run ministries, we can do relational evangelism, which is what I do with those who are my clients. I have a business relationship with them and it makes sense that I extend that so I can share Christ with them in a loving manner.

It is not rocket science, buddy, you are picking on the wrong girl.

 

[Quincy]

So apparently, way too many people around here aren't familiar with the fact that Argument From Incredulity is a FALLACY.
Your personal inability to understand something (including your disgust for it) does not make the thing irrational or aberrant.

Sexuality, like politics and other things we like to argue about with generalizations, exists on a set of spectra.
These include what gender we are attracted to, personality type attraction, body type attraction, age preference, etc etc.

Each of us operates somewhere on the gender-attraction spectrum between "homosexual" and "heterosexual".
We use the term "bisexual" to describe someone who is at about the halfway point on the spectrum, but that's merely one of a potentially infinite number of points.

For example, a man who is physically and emotionally only attracted to other men, yet also has an appreciation for the female form or for the unique emotional contribution his female friends make in his life.

Sexuality is so complex an aspect of human behavior that it would be impossible to assign terminology to every single individual set of spectra.

But too many people (especially on TOL) seem to forget (or deliberately ignore) the complexity of their own sexuality when speaking of others' sexuality in ridiculously simplistic terms.

I'm not just attracted to women.
I'm attracted to women who are curvy, more mature than I am, musically inclined, have long hair, have piercing eyes, love Classic Rock, and are willing to drive on road trips because I fall asleep easily during long car rides.
I will not be content with less.

On an unrelated note, I have just described my wife.

A gay friend of mine isn't just attracted to men.
He's attracted to men who enjoy sports, love to see live music, have starlight-blue eyes, make a point of not caring about fashion, and who can fill out a flannel shirt.

...and yes, I just called him and asked, and yes, he just described his boyfriend.

It isn't just because daddy didn't love (or loved too much in the wrong way) that boys grow up attracted to other boys.
And it isn't just because daddy cheated on mommy and mommy spent years talking about boys and men being evil that girls grow up attracted to other girls.
That it occasionally happens does not make it the universal cause.


Clearly too many people here cannot understand (or refuse to acknowledge) just how complex sexuality is, so rather than examine yourselves and acknowledge that everyone possesses the same complexity, you would rather throw ignorant blanket statements upon others (who by the way aren't even here to defend themselves) again and again in hopes of finding validation.

Nice post, buzzword. I've not really considered the complexity of human sexuality very much. Your post immediately makes me think that there must be a lot of people out there who have a narrow view of it. Of course if you have a limited view of it, you'll project that onto other people.

It plays to a concern of mine. People often say homosexuality is a mental illness or aberration. I don't believe it is, but let's just say it is for discussion's sake. Even if it is an illness, why single it out? How is being homosexual then any different than being schizophrenic? Should people who are different be labeled ill and given less rights by people who can't understand their condition? I'd so no.

 

[noguru]

I have a natural hard wired revulsion toward it. I believe that is how God designed every human being.
Homosexuality is a dysfunctional addictive behavior as are many of the sexual sins out there. Once a person is snared, it is hard for them to extricate themselves.

I agree for the most part, but I am not sure if it is the vast majority or all in which it is hardwired. I think, as can be seen from all other areas of reality, there are anomalies and exceptions. From my experience as a bartender for several years, and hearing them speak, most cases of homosexuality are dysfunctional addictive behaviors that have gone completely out of control.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

We should all be prepared to do so, for the sake of Christ.
John 12:25

Out of context verse dropping, how original.

Honestly, are you brain dead? I am sorry but you seem thick as a brick. If you have actually read my posts and can sit there all pompous and say that I sit back and let evil take over, then you have cognitive issues. ...

Our calling is not to sit piously on a throne of judgement. The Word of God and their own sin judges them already.

If we're not to righteously judge, then we shouldn't have laws, police officers to enforce them, or jailers to punish those that break them.

You certainly aren't an anarchist are you T5s? (Of course she isn't, she doesn't want laws that might effect her 'pet sin').

 

[noguru]

We should all be prepared to do so, for the sake of Christ.
John 12:25




Honestly, are you brain dead? I am sorry but you seem thick as a brick. If you have actually read my posts and can sit there all pompous and say that I sit back and let evil take over, then you have cognitive issues.

I am an active Christian in my church, community, province, country and overseas in fact. Just because I am not self-righteously pointing my fingers at homosexuals or any other group of sinners, condemning them to hell, does not mean I am not fulfilling my role which God has called me to serve Him.

Our calling is not to sit piously on a throne of judgement. The Word of God and their own sin judges them already. We should be sharing the gospel with people, regardless of the nature of their sin and calling them to repentance.
2 Corinthians 5:20
"Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

I am not some bleeding heart either...come on, I am a Calvinist, you know the stereotype, the frozen chosen. :rotfl:
However, I understand, unlike you for some reason, that sharing the gospel and calling people to repentance is exactly what we should be doing as Christians. It is called, the great commission, ever heard of it?

We can do this in a variety of ways, which should not be sinful and disgrace the name of Christ, like being hateful, calling names, demeaning people,but rather, bring honour to Him. We can shout it from the rooftops, we can run ministries, we can do relational evangelism, which is what I do with those who are my clients. I have a business relationship with them and it makes sense that I extend that so I can share Christ with them in a loving manner.

It is not rocket science, buddy, you are picking on the wrong girl.

But you see to some here you are "being nicer than God".