The existence of Satan makes no sense.

fcisd

New member
The first mention of any sin anywhere is in the Garden of God when Adam and Eve were tempted. If you want to read about the first mention of sin, Genesis 3 is the place to go.
This is the first sin MENTIONED in the Bible but when you read that verse you posted we know it isn't the first sin ever to take place. Satan simply fell because he sinned.

Your logic doesn't follow. In what way is it not just?

God is the one sinned against and God is the one who responds justly. The angels were not made in the image of God and so He chose not to make provision for the salvation of the angels that rebelled. That is not unjust. He was not required by the demands of justice to provide for our salvation. But God is not a magician either, as the Calvinists would have you believe. God is real and therefore cannot do the irrational. He cannot do things that have no consequences. So, while Adam and Eve died spiritually (i.e. they were separated from the presence of God) and while they were made mortal in their physical bodies, He did not wipe out the human race.
The consequences of which are two fold; Firstly the world is inhabited for a finite period of time by sinful human beings that harm one another, secondly God can work a plan that will permit some of them to be saved for eternity. God clearly believes the later is worth the cost of the former. Indeed, worth that and much more because, once again, God, if He is just, must meet the demands of justice and the wages of sin is death (i.e. separation from God). Therefore God paid that price for us. Jesus, God the Son died (both spiritually and physically) in our place and He did so precisely because God is real and cannot just wink away the consequences of sin.

So I ask you again, in what way is it unjust? By what standard?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Let me ask you a question, would it be ok to judge a random white kid to be a bad person because his ancestors committed crimes? Should this kid be sent to prison because of the transgressions of his ancestors?
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Go back and read chapter seven, the body of destruction is you're body made up of matter that corrupts, which is the law of nature, the conscience never dies which puts on a light body after the physical one fails, Luke 15:45.
God made everything with him (his light, breath, word), and out and of darkness(void, vacuum, absence). Everything we can observe is like, 94% void, nothing. So it's much more accurate, when speaking of Satan, or evil, or chaos, or void that you know that GOD formed these things. Perhaps he didn't make them for the specific direction that they want to go, but he did bind them and they do fear him and are restricted by his will.
 

fcisd

New member
Same Result - Both Sinning Parties were cast out into where they came from the Earth.

They obeyed THE SERPENT and Relinquished Rule over the Earth.

SATAN IS RULING NOW AND JESUS WILL TAKE OVER IN A FEW YEARS TIME.


It wasn't really the same results because heaven did not change. I can't believe that there are people just brushing off with "your questions are answered".

Popsthebuilder has been switching his answers from "they were not in heaven" regardless of verses stating they were "cast down to hell" to "well just because they had some greed doesn't mean that's sin..".
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
It wasn't really the same results because heaven did not change. I can't believe that there are people just brushing off with "your questions are answered".

Popsthebuilder has been switching his answers from "they were not in heaven" regardless of verses stating they were "cast down to hell" to "well just because they had some greed doesn't mean that's sin..".

good post
 

fcisd

New member
It's my understandng that they where cast into hell which is attached to earth in some way. Hell and Earth and Heaven will all be changed to an extent that is snip.

All verses have been shown to you and it makes it clear they were exiled from heaven.

my understanding at this moment is this Satan is metaphorical for our negative sides. God did not create us as perfect beings because only he is perfect, creating perfect beings would be creating other gods what he did was create "mini-versions" of himself (which makes us really his children) If you read the whole "image and likeness" and how the holy spirit was breathed in the body of adam to produce his spirit, it shows that we are spirits that have a body and our spirit is an "offspring" of the Holy Spirit. Now since we are that close to him yet not him, we are incapable of being automatic in holiness and full positivity -- and that weakness -- the Opposing side in us is what Satan is (Satan means opposer in the first place). In short, we were the light bearers that were in the "backyard" in heaven but fell...

I'm not making this 100% fact, but at this moment this is the only thing i can make sense with because when we really draw out the traditional way of Satan -- this anti-god, king of evil, fallen angel it just puts so much logical holes. Even if we still chose to believe Satan exists, we can't place him as the king of evil anymore because we have done more evils than he has by a long shot.
 

CherubRam

New member
There is no hell. The words "grave," Gehenna," and "pit," do not translate as "Hell." The Hebrew word "Sheol" means "grave."
 

CherubRam

New member
Revelation 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the (earth, ground, land, terraforma.)

The dragon was thrown to the ground. (Cast Down)

I hope I am not wasting my time on you people.
 

fcisd

New member
There is no hell. The words "grave," Gehenna," and "pit," do not translate as "Hell." The Hebrew word "Sheol" means "grave."

I don't believe in the popular illustration of hell, the place where you will burn forever... hell is possibly where the soul ceases to exist or is permanently lost, with out god, with out anyone. One of those two. The illustration of hell being where the demons and Satan dwells doesn't make sense either because how can he roam the earth tempting everybody yet be in hell.
 

CherubRam

New member
I don't believe in the popular illustration of hell, the place where you will burn forever... hell is possibly where the soul ceases to exist or is permanently lost, with out god, with out anyone. One of those two. The illustration of hell being where the demons and Satan dwells doesn't make sense either because how can he roam the earth tempting everybody yet be in hell.

The Satan (adversary / opposition) goes where ever it will. Satan is used in parables to illustrate a biblical truth that has real life applications.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
All verses have been shown to you and it makes it clear they were exiled from heaven.

my understanding at this moment is this Satan is metaphorical for our negative sides. God did not create us as perfect beings because only he is perfect, creating perfect beings would be creating other gods what he did was create "mini-versions" of himself (which makes us really his children) If you read the whole "image and likeness" and how the holy spirit was breathed in the body of adam to produce his spirit, it shows that we are spirits that have a body and our spirit is an "offspring" of the Holy Spirit. Now since we are that close to him yet not him, we are incapable of being automatic in holiness and full positivity -- and that weakness -- the Opposing side in us is what Satan is (Satan means opposer in the first place). In short, we were the light bearers that were in the "backyard" in heaven but fell...

I'm not making this 100% fact, but at this moment this is the only thing i can make sense with because when we really draw out the traditional way of Satan -- this anti-god, king of evil, fallen angel it just puts so much logical holes. Even if we still chose to believe Satan exists, we can't place him as the king of evil anymore because we have done more evils than he has by a long shot.
We pretty much agree except for us being the fallen angels. That's just not the case. Let's just so I know this. As far as acts of the flesh are concerned; you keep dividing Satan from man. But you understand that Satan is the embodiment of sin and all sin is of man. Why do you think it is strongly advised to give everything to God and pray to him for his direction and will to be imparted to you. We are literally made of void in the flesh and prone to it's desires which are all negative, and equate to more negative when employed.

To say that angels/ demons, or spirits don't exist is hard for me to believe. There was a point, a period when I didn't believe in either, but I do now.

Sorry for ranting.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Revelation 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the (earth, ground, land, terraforma.)

The dragon was thrown to the ground. (Cast Down)

I hope I am not wasting my time on you people.
You people?

I know a condescending attitude is only going to bring more negativity into the discussion and cause people not to learn whatever it is you are trying to teach.
😊

Peace
 

OCTOBER23

New member
POPSICLEBUILDER,


IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE SATAN IN ACTION - JUST GET A WEDGEE BOARD

you will be afraid - very afraid
 

CherubRam

New member
We pretty much agree except for us being the fallen angels. That's just not the case. Let's just so I know this. As far as acts of the flesh are concerned; you keep dividing Satan from man. But you understand that Satan is the embodiment of sin and all sin is of man. Why do you think it is strongly advised to give everything to God and pray to him for his direction and will to be imparted to you. We are literally made of void in the flesh and prone to it's desires which are all negative, and equate to more negative when employed.

To say that angels/ demons, or spirits don't exist is hard for me to believe. There was a point, a period when I didn't believe in either, but I do now.

Sorry for ranting.
Jude
5. I will remind you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate
, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
All verses have been shown to you and it makes it clear they were exiled from heaven.

my understanding at this moment is this Satan is metaphorical for our negative sides. God did not create us as perfect beings because only he is perfect, creating perfect beings would be creating other gods what he did was create "mini-versions" of himself (which makes us really his children) If you read the whole "image and likeness" and how the holy spirit was breathed in the body of adam to produce his spirit, it shows that we are spirits that have a body and our spirit is an "offspring" of the Holy Spirit. Now since we are that close to him yet not him, we are incapable of being automatic in holiness and full positivity -- and that weakness -- the Opposing side in us is what Satan is (Satan means opposer in the first place). In short, we were the light bearers that were in the "backyard" in heaven but fell...

I'm not making this 100% fact, but at this moment this is the only thing i can make sense with because when we really draw out the traditional way of Satan -- this anti-god, king of evil, fallen angel it just puts so much logical holes. Even if we still chose to believe Satan exists, we can't place him as the king of evil anymore because we have done more evils than he has by a long shot.

One of the Devil's biggest lies: "I don't exist".

The Spiritual realm is as real as ours, not seeing it doesn't negate its existence.
Satan and his cohorts rebelling, exercised their will and rebelling did cause changes, negative ones in the Spiritual Realm.

One thing that is true that if you don't understand, it will wreck your faith. You can't understand everything about God, not on this side. Our supposed intellect, our pride is fighting against submitting to God, truly trusting Him and His word.

If we pick out what we want to believe from His word it all becomes meaningless.

The Spiritual war we are in has very real losers, it's a battle for God's truth and Satan's lies. His lies are meant to kill and destroy and that is exactly what they do! God's truth and love save, the exact opposite. The ear will end and God does win the war, but Satan is winning battles with every life that stays trapped in his darkness and lies and ultimately Hell.

Is this the only way that true love could be created between us and God in a glorious union? I don't know, but it is the reality of the situation, our situation that is filled tragedy all around and the beauty of the love of created between us Our Father and Jesus shared through the Holy Spirit.

If you look at testimonies of one of your cohorts Padre Pio, and others like the Warrens, you will see the Devil has not covered His tracks good enough, he undoubtedly is real.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
This is the first sin MENTIONED in the Bible but when you read that verse you posted we know it isn't the first sin ever to take place. Satan simply fell because he sinned.
You say we know it isn't the first sin ever to take place.

How do we know it?

Let me ask you a question, would it be ok to judge a random white kid to be a bad person because his ancestors committed crimes? Should this kid be sent to prison because of the transgressions of his ancestors?
What does his skin color have to do with it? :kookoo:

No! And no one will be sent to Hell (i.e. punished by God) because of anything other than their own sin. The bible could not be more clear on this point.

Ezekiel 18:18 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.

10 “If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.

14 “If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!

18 “As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.


19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

And so I ask you again, how is what God has done unjust? BY WHAT STANDARD?

Answer the question!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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