The existence of Satan makes no sense.

[fcisd]

Well, if you believe Paul's unique gospel and live forever, you can ask him how and why he imputes sin.

But it still does not answer the question as to why the Earth got damaged while Heaven did not. You making it look like i never read the bible, and you are pointing at verses that have nothing to do with my question.

He chose to rebel. Why does anybody choose hell and reject imputed righteousness? Why do they shake their fist at him? Ask them. I don't know. Well, some here explicitly stated they hate him because he is evil for saying to execute capital criminals.

What exactly made him him rebel? What was his problem with God, is it because he hated Man, didn't like God making man his prized creation? If that is so, how can anybody blame him based on the history of man? When you look into the track records of evil deeds done, Mankind has blown Satan out of the water a long time ago. The Holocaust, Isis, Pol Pot, random Animal cruelty and domestic crimes... that is all us, there is no evil entity to cast blame on for making/tricking us into doing that.. we are fully responsible.

I dont understand what you are talking about your first sentence

 

[fcisd]

Satan did have a will. He exercised it.

He has changed. The angels still observe 'the rest of the story'.
He was created perfectly (Ezek. 28:14–19).
You'll notice when Jesus walked the earth he was no concerned with political correctness (Schwarzentraub).
Would you have sinned had you been there? :Shimei:

They were created in a perfect environment. You were not.

It's a mute point. Your situation is different than theirs. Ps 51:5


You've committed enough sin of your own to deserve hell. Repent and life.

You were quoting my responses to a poster making those statements, i made those questions to show his comment didn't make sense.

He has changed. The angels still observe 'the rest of the story'.

Yes, he obviously changed.. we also changed after we sin, and the world changed as well because of that. So now I go back to the question, WHY DIDN'T HEAVEN change?

 

[fcisd]

Who said it has to predate it?

I believe strongly that the fall of Adam and the fall of Lucifer happened simultaneously. That the tempting of Adam was the first sin - ever.

So which was the first sin, awhile ago Nick was saying Lucifer rebelled and was cast down. Now he was still an angel hanging around in the garden and he sinned by tempting Adam? I for one never heard this from anybody before, but i've heard the earlier allot of times.

Even if I'm completely wrong and the was a rebellion that happened in heaven, the reason that heaven did have the same result is because God had a different reaction. God booted the whole bunch out of heaven. We, on the other hand, are all still here on the same Earth that Adam inhabited which God Himself cursed for our sake (Gen. 3:17).

But doesn't this conflict with the all just and righteous God? We and our world became this broken/suffering abode while Heaven did not? I mean certainly, Satan's sin was obviously worse.. he did that on his own 100%: he was all wise, he didn't have anybody pull his leg... he fully made that decision while with Adam&Eve it was almost like a prank. Serpent: "God didn't mean that.. you misunderstood.. take the bite... psyche!!".


Thanks for your responses none the less.

 

[fcisd]

Angels have free will. 2/3 of which relinquished that will to utterly and wholly perform the will of God.

Ok, they have free will. Now, this leads to the following question:

If Lucifer-this high angel- managed to sin in heaven, then how are we sure that the other angels such as Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, or even the Saints such as Mary, Joseph, etc are still up there? After all these thousands of years, can we raise the possibility that one of these known figures messed up there and got thrown out? If it can happen to a high angel then it logically it can happen to anybody.

Politically correct has nothing to do with anything that is actually correct.

We, like Adam and Eve, have potential for direction under God or not. Their potential was the same as its is.

Let me ask you a question, don't worry about the connection with this question and what i've quoted from you just yet:

Is t ok to go to this random white kid outside my house and just condemn him as evil because his ancestors likely took in slaves, murdered Native Americans or just did any random crime? Just answer yes or no based on this connection.

 

[fcisd]

So back to your subject.
You said:
Although this is not your central and highlighted question, I think it is more fundamental. Many people, including you apparently, perceive suffering and pain as evil things. But suffering is necessary to define us as individuals. We only experience joy because we know there was a possibility that it could have turned out differently. You experience happiness when you win a bet but you experience frustration and hurt when you lose a bet. You feel happy when your stomach is full but you feel pain and worry when it is empty. You feel satisfaction when you are with your loved ones but loss and bereavement when you are separated from them. None of this is evil. You feel these things

I'm not referring to the "childish" type of suffering, i'm talking about the real evils in this world: The Holocaust, 9/11, the events happening in Syria, the Isis, the Salem Witch trials.. animals brutally killing each other..This is what i mean by a suffering world, nothing petty as to what you described. None of that is necessary for us to define ourselves.

I recall watching a video of a very old sick-scientific experiment where a bunch of soviet scientists tried to make a two headed dog. Here is the link:
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/soviet-scientists-made-this-two-headed-dog

When i look at this, and there is even a video of it -you can see the dog walking in pain- it just blows my mind how anybody can symbolize Satan as the father of all evil, when us humans have done sick things and massive atrocities. If Satan did rebel against god because he hated man don't you think that after this track record he has a point? I'd hate man to and honestly i would be angry at god if I was being cast aside and antagonized over these monsters.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not angry at God or losing my belief in his existence it's just to point out more of the logical holes involving the belief in the existence of the king entity of evil, Satan.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Don't get me wrong, i'm not angry at God or losing my belief in his existence it's just to point out more of the logical holes involving the belief in the existence of the king entity of evil, Satan.

What sort of "Catholic" do you claim to be?

AMR

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

It still wouldn't make sense. Then what's with all the scripture talk about Satan falling from heaven?

Earth was Paradise bro

~Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day ~shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[serpentdove]

Yes, he obviously changed.. we also changed after we sin, and the world changed as well because of that. So now I go back to the question, WHY DIDN'T HEAVEN change?

God cursed the ground (on planet earth [Ge 3:17]).

No filthy thing will ever enter into heaven's gate (Re 22:15).

 

[serpentdove]

Don't get me wrong, i'm not angry at God or losing my belief in his existence it's just to point out more of the logical holes involving the belief in the existence of the king entity of evil, Satan.

Jesus believed that he existed (Jn 8:44). You claim to be a Christ follower. :blabla: Why do don't you believe what he said? oly:

 

[popsthebuilder]

Ok, they have free will. Now, this leads to the following question:

If Lucifer-this high angel- managed to sin in heaven, then how are we sure that the other angels such as Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, or even the Saints such as Mary, Joseph, etc are still up there? After all these thousands of years, can we raise the possibility that one of these known figures messed up there and got thrown out? If it can happen to a high angel then it logically it can happen to anybody.



Let me ask you a question, don't worry about the connection with this question and what i've quoted from you just yet:

Is t ok to go to this random white kid outside my house and just condemn him as evil because his ancestors likely took in slaves, murdered Native Americans or just did any random crime? Just answer yes or no based on this connection.

I'm sorry, but where does it state m scripture that Satan sinned in heaven and as a consequence was cast out to earth?

Children are innocent and your question is rigged.

Who are you to assume anything of how heaven should be or what God is or isn't capable of?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Seems to me that at least two people have answered your questions to only be asked similar redundant questions. What don't you get about evil being in every one of us to some extent? I personally don't really but into original sin. It seems to me that it was placed and is emphasized so that people would think; oh well, we were all made with sin, therefore we can't help but to sin. This is Bs as Adam and eve both lived without sin prior to being deceived.

Perhaps you could go through the posts so far and take time to answer the specific rebuttals that people here have posted, and then post rebuttals of your own. Ole Clete and I don't generally see eye to eye, but we have both posed good points. Please answer said points if you care to be taken seriously.

Thanks, peace.

 

[fcisd]

Jesus believed that he existed (Jn 8:44). You claim to be a Christ follower. :blabla: Why do don't you believe what he said? oly:

Why should I believe Jesus is speaking literally about Satan and not metaphorically? When you draw this Satan figure out, it just doesn't make sense leaving no reason to accept it as literal.

 

[fcisd]

I'm sorry, but where does it state m scripture that Satan sinned in heaven and as a consequence was cast out to earth?

Satan falling from heaven is a common christian teaching. There are many verses that give this conception, such as the verse in revelation and 2 peter 2:4. Where in Scripture does it hint that Satan sinned in this world or out of heaven?

Children are innocent and your question is rigged.

They are still with mortal sin. Why? Why condemn the people that came after Adam, why put them in a world like this and give them this free will that we are obligated to chose wisely or burn in hell? They/we had nothing to do with what happened in the garden, that is Adam and Eve's fault.. not us.

Who are you to assume anything of how heaven should be or what God is or isn't capable of?

Does it matter who I am? Like I said, how can we defend a Just/righteous God with all these logical and contradictory problems?

 

[fcisd]

Seems to me that at least two people have answered your questions to only be asked similar redundant questions.

No one answered my questions, i've asked:

1. How come heaven didn't change, just like the Earth did when Satan sinned. This is the first time i've heard that he was not in heaven, and only 4 people stated this out the many.

2. If Satan can sin, then how are we sure that the rest of the angels like Micheal or the saints like the Virgin Mary, or our own loved ones that passed away are still up there?

What don't you get about evil being in every one of us to some extent? I personally don't really but into original sin. It seems to me that it was placed and is emphasized so that people would think; oh well, we were all made with sin, therefore we can't help but to sin. This is Bs as Adam and eve both lived without sin prior to being deceived.

I don't get why it exists in this world. For us to be condemned because of what Adam and Eve did is politically wrong. It's like me condemning random people of the street for the transgressions of their ancestors or parents. Is it right to just label a random white person today as a bad person because his ancestors took in slaves?

Perhaps you could go through the posts so far and take time to answer the specific rebuttals that people here have posted, and then post rebuttals of your own. Ole Clete and I don't generally see eye to eye, but we have both posed good points. Please answer said points if you care to be taken seriously.

Thanks, peace.

What said points, mostly everything had nothing to do with what I am asking.. and here you are getting upset with me? Is it because you guys can't built a logical response that it's upsetting you?

 

[fcisd]

What sort of "Catholic" do you claim to be?

AMR

Why does this matter? So that you can start a debate on what religion i am in because you don't like the fact that I have these questions and i'm not just believing it like i'm supposed to?

 

[Wick Stick]

Seems to me that the book of Enoch, from Ethiopia predates the Torah. Why would one throw out such a book?

The Torah is a 1000 years earlier.

Depending on which chronology you use, and whether or not you subscribe to the Documentary Hypothesis, the Torah (which is actually a combination of 3-4 accounts which have been collected/edited together) was written somewhere between 1500BC at the earliest, and 800BC, at the latest.

The Book of Enoch is likewise an anthology of 5 separate books, written somewhere between 500BC at the earliest, and 200AD at the latest.

Jarrod

 

[popsthebuilder]

No one answered my questions, i've asked:

1. How come heaven didn't change, just like the Earth did when Satan sinned. This is the first time i've heard that he was not in heaven, and only 4 people stated this out the many.

2. If Satan can sin, then how are we sure that the rest of the angels like Micheal or the saints like the Virgin Mary, or our own loved ones that passed away are still up there?



I don't get why it exists in this world. For us to be condemned because of what Adam and Eve did is politically wrong. It's like me condemning random people of the street for the transgressions of their ancestors or parents. Is it right to just label a random white person today as a bad person because his ancestors took in slaves?



What said points, mostly everything had nothing to do with what I am asking.. and here you are getting upset with me? Is it because you guys can't built a logical response that it's upsetting you?

You simply don't make sense. What makes you think heaven isn't the same or whatever? Please back up your assertions with scripture of some sort. I'm not getting upset at all. People have countered your non points but you just repeat them without justification or answering our questions. If someone answers your question the. you should answer theirs.

Perhaps you could reword your question and I can word my answer differently. I thought I answered the questions posed in the op but maybe I didn't.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The first sin wasn't in heaven. Those in heaven do not waiver from the will of GOD.

 

[jamie]

The first sin wasn't in heaven. Those in heaven do not waiver from the will of GOD.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment... (2 Peter 2:4 NKJV)​

 

[popsthebuilder]

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment... (2 Peter 2:4 NKJV)​

It doesn't say that they sinned in heaven. It is speaking of the sin that 1/3 committed on earth with us.