The existence of Satan makes no sense.

[fcisd]

One of the Devil's biggest lies: "I don't exist".

This statement was popularized by movies such as End of days and that other one with Anthony Hopkins.

The Spiritual realm is as real as ours, not seeing it doesn't negate its existence.
Satan and his cohorts rebelling, exercised their will and rebelling did cause changes, negative ones in the Spiritual Realm.

One thing that is true that if you don't understand, it will wreck your faith. You can't understand everything about God, not on this side. Our supposed intellect, our pride is fighting against submitting to God, truly trusting Him and His word.

If we pick out what we want to believe from His word it all becomes meaningless.

The Spiritual war we are in has very real losers, it's a battle for God's truth and Satan's lies. His lies are meant to kill and destroy and that is exactly what they do! God's truth and love save, the exact opposite. The ear will end and God does win the war, but Satan is winning battles with every life that stays trapped in his darkness and lies and ultimately Hell.

Is this the only way that true love could be created between us and God in a glorious union? I don't know, but it is the reality of the situation, our situation that is filled tragedy all around and the beauty of the love of created between us Our Father and Jesus shared through the Holy Spirit.

If you look at testimonies of one of your cohorts Padre Pio, and others like the Warrens, you will see the Devil has not covered His tracks good enough, he undoubtedly is real.

Well that if he exists, then lets make sense of the theology. Up to this point, not one person has been able to explain how Satan managed to sin up in heaven and how heaven did not get the same results as the earth. How can Satan be labeled as evil, when mankind exists? We have done more evils than he has by a long shot and for a longer time.. he is only brought in because we are too narcissistic to take full responsibility.

 

[fcisd]

You say we know it isn't the first sin ever to take place.

How do we know it?[/quote]
What is your point on this?

What does his skin color have to do with it? :kookoo:

One of the topics we are discussing is the "just" part. So just answer the question, worry about the relevance later.

No! And no one will be sent to Hell (i.e. punished by God) because of anything other than their own sin. The bible could not be more clear on this point.

I never denied or spoke against people going to hell for their own faults, what are you talking about here? You made this whole block of a post quoting bible verses and none of them are really on topic to my points.

 

[fcisd]

We pretty much agree except for us being the fallen angels. That's just not the case. Let's just so I know this. As far as acts of the flesh are concerned; you keep dividing Satan from man. But you understand that Satan is the embodiment of sin and all sin is of man. Why do you think it is strongly advised to give everything to God and pray to him for his direction and will to be imparted to you. We are literally made of void in the flesh and prone to it's desires which are all negative, and equate to more negative when employed.

To say that angels/ demons, or spirits don't exist is hard for me to believe. There was a point, a period when I didn't believe in either, but I do now.

Sorry for ranting.

Angels does translate as Messenger, and in short we are actually god's messenger almost like his right hand. If Angels exist, what do they do? Do they serve him fruit, give him reports? You can't say they protect man because we see accidents happen. How do they exactly serve him? The only thing that is closest to hold the title "One who is like god" is us. We were created in his likeness, and the existence and impact of Science in this world is a demonstration of our "powers". How can we believe in demons and satan being the biggest evil, when we have a track record that is greater than theirs by a million times?

You have been given logic holes in the whole theology concerning Satan, just look at how sloppy, contradicting and almost irrelevant yours and the majority replies are. No offense, but nobody really went straight into the questions i gave. There was no answer about why Heaven didn't change or if we should believe that other heavenly hosts are currently still up in heaven.

 

[fcisd]

People seem to have more faith in Satan than Gods creation.

If Satan does exist, i can't actually blame him for hating on God's creation: Man and also being angry at God for choosing such evil creatures over everything else.

The Nazi's, the Isis, the shootings, the wars, terrorism, 9/11, The Crusades, etc etc. That is all man, man is not 50-90% responsible but 100% responsible. Man has shown to be far more evil than Satan or any demon illustrated..

 

[Caino]

If Satan does exist, i can't actually blame him for hating on God's creation: Man and also being angry at God for choosing such evil creatures over everything else.

The Nazi's, the Isis, the shootings, the wars, terrorism, 9/11, The Crusades, etc etc. That is all man, man is not 50-90% responsible but 100% responsible. Man has shown to be far more evil than Satan or any demon illustrated..

Satan launched his Atheist rebellion against the Fathers rule. Such a rebellion when fully chosen eventually leads to eternal death so that's worse than the death of the body.

 

[JosephR]

Satan launched his Atheist rebellion against the Fathers rule. Such a rebellion when fully chosen eventually leads to eternal death so that's worse than the death of the body.

so you think you have a better ""fact less"" story then the rest?

how does this make your claim,legit?

 

[Crucible]

Well that if he exists, then lets make sense of the theology. Up to this point, not one person has been able to explain how Satan managed to sin up in heaven and how heaven did not get the same results as the earth. How can Satan be labeled as evil, when mankind exists? We have done more evils than he has by a long shot and for a longer time.. he is only brought in because we are too narcissistic to take full responsibility.

You obviously haven't done a lot of study- or just don't want to accept any explanation.
But,
Your own church answered this a long time ago ~bro skillet~

Angels have a perfect will in which, once they make a decision, they cannot go back on it. Satan cannot seek redemption because his will is incapable of doing so, having seen the Beatific Vision and yet still turning away.

Other angels chose the same, while others stayed perfect in Heaven. That is why Heaven is not tainted, and why Satan is still the most wicked. He binds his time as being the prince of the Earth, being the agent of adversary and swooning men to their own destruction- the same ol' Serpent from Eden hasn't changed.

 

[serpentdove]

“No one answered my questions, i've asked:
1. How come heaven didn't change, just like the Earth did when Satan sinned.”

You don’t believe Satan exists. lain: If Satan doesn’t exist, he can’t change any angelic attitudes. :juggle:

“This is the first time I’ve heard that he was not in heaven…”

He speaks with the Lord—like I speak with Town Heretic. Would we tip toe through the tulips together? :roses: Unlikely.

“…Tom, while being a very nice guy, is the Devil.” ~ Aaron Altman, Broadcast News

See:

Does Satan still have access to Heaven? Why does God allow Satan to enter Heaven, as recorded in the Bible?

“If Satan can sin…”

You don’t acknowledge that he exists.

“…[T]hen how are we sure that the rest of the angels like Michael or the saints like the Virgin Mary, or our own loved ones that passed away are still up there?”

You can’t be sure of anything. You don’t believe the bible. :dizzy:

“I don't get why it [evil] exists in this world.”

Adam sinned (Gen. 3:1–5). The world was good (Ge 1:31). It became bad.

“For us to be condemned because of what Adam and Eve did is politically wrong…”

Vote for a child killing, serial adulterer. :banana:

“It's like me condemning random people of the street for the transgressions of their ancestors or parents…”

You were born in sin (Ps 51:5). You have committed enough of your own sin to deserve going to hell. Forget Adam. He was born into a perfect world. You were not. You are not Adam. You are you.

It’s Tuesday. You still haven’t repented.

“Is it right to just label a random white person today as a bad person because his ancestors took in slaves?”

Your father’s sins are not held against you (Eze 18:20). That’s Klingon theology.

No need to discuss Adam. No need to discuss daddy. Discuss yourself.

You, linger: CathOlic :freak: are a sinner. Let that CathOlic guilt work on you for a while.

When you realize that you are you are: wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked (Re 3:17), you can be saved (Mt 5:3).

 

[serpentdove]

My question about why Heaven never changed and why we should believe that the rest of the angels and saints are still up there if sin is possible to be done...

Heb. 12:22, 23 :dizzy:

 

[Caino]

so you think you have a better ""fact less"" story then the rest?

how does this make your claim,legit?

If Satan really knew Jesus' Father he would never rebel against him. It only stands to reason that Satan thought he could actually get away with what he tried to do........and they allowed it.

 

[Caino]

You obviously haven't done a lot of study- or just don't want to accept any explanation.
But,
Your own church answered this a long time ago ~bro skillet~

Angels have a perfect will in which, once they make a decision, they cannot go back on it. Satan cannot seek redemption because his will is incapable of doing so, having seen the Beatific Vision and yet still turning away.

Other angels chose the same, while others stayed perfect in Heaven. That is why Heaven is not tainted, and why Satan is still the most wicked. He binds his time as being the prince of the Earth, being the agent of adversary and swooning men to their own destruction- the same ol' Serpent from Eden hasn't changed.

Satan and all the others who fell were offered forgiveness but they refused. Will means choice to sin and repent.

 

[serpentdove]

...If you take a look at the massive sufferings in this world, not just with humans but even the animals... we have been taught that this is the result of a broken world because of Adam and Eve bringing sin. So question goes, if sin entered heaven first then why didn't it change or degrade just like with the earth?

You want God to curse heaven? :AMR:

"In my home! In my bedroom!... Where...my children play with their toys?" ~ Michael Corleone

 

[Crucible]

Will means choice to sin and repent.

No it doesn't.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

This statement was popularized by movies such as End of days and that other one with Anthony Hopkins.


Well that if he exists, then lets make sense of the theology. Up to this point, not one person has been able to explain how Satan managed to sin up in heaven and how heaven did not get the same results as the earth. How can Satan be labeled as evil, when mankind exists? We have done more evils than he has by a long shot and for a longer time.. he is only brought in because we are too narcissistic to take full responsibility.

The Devil made me do it excuse, is no excuse. We are responsible if we follow oureslves and the darkness in our pride. The Devil and His host encourage, we act. We are fully responsible.

How did the Devil Sin, God permitted free will even to the angels. In His pride He wanted to be God, like so many of us, of our own little kingdoms.

How sin stained the Spiritual vs. the material? They are different so why would sin not affect them differently, just as we are different from the angels and sin affects us differently.

 

[Clete]

How do we know it?

What is your point on this?

My point is that saying it doesn't make it so. You claim to know something. Prove it, or at least make an argument.

The biblical evidence, what little of it there is, seems to indicate that Lucifer's rebellion began with the tempting of Adam and Eve. I can't say that it so for certain because there is insufficient evidence to support a dogmatic stance but what I've provided is better than me just stating a bald assertion with not a jot nor tittle of any sort of evidence or argument.

One of the topics we are discussing is the "just" part. So just answer the question, worry about the relevance later.

There is no way I'm going to answer a question as though someone's skin color is relevant to a discussion about justice.

I never denied or spoke against people going to hell for their own faults, what are you talking about here? You made this whole block of a post quoting bible verses and none of them are really on topic to my points.

You are either wasting my time intentionally, not bothering to read my posts or you are stupid.

I answered your question directly with a single syllable answer and then gave biblical proof that I'm right about that answer.

You asked, "would it be ok to judge a random white kid to be a bad person because his ancestors committed crimes? Should this kid be sent to prison because of the transgressions of his ancestors?"

My presumption was that you weren't completely changing the subject of the thread and so answered in the context of God being somehow unjust and presumed you were drawing some sort of parallel between the example you give in your question and the way God has dealt with humanity.

My answer was "No, it would not be just."

Now, I'm going to give you one last opportunity to answer my question. If you want to continue this conversion you will answer it directly. If you don't want to continue then that's fine but don't think you'll be successful in wasting any more of my time.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Zeke]

God made everything with him (his light, breath, word), and out and of darkness(void, vacuum, absence). Everything we can observe is like, 94% void, nothing. So it's much more accurate, when speaking of Satan, or evil, or chaos, or void that you know that GOD formed these things. Perhaps he didn't make them for the specific direction that they want to go, but he did bind them and they do fear him and are restricted by his will.

Fear and rebellion being part of the adolescent period of the conscience temporally imprisoned in Matter/Mary.

 

[Zeke]

:dizzy: Our faith is incorruptible (1 Pe 1:4). :listen: That's how you knows it's real.

Yet the body still decays back to where it came, a temporal avatar for the Soul to experience the gantlet of educational contrast for one becoming a Son of God, Satan being a part of the maze of mental deceptions to overcome.

 

[Caino]

No it doesn't.

Should have said "free will".

 

[CherubRam]

The Satan (adversary / opposition) goes where ever it will. Satan is used in parables to illustrate a biblical truth that have real life applications.

I see that I am indeed wasting time. What can be said to people who can not negotiate a parable?

 

[fcisd]

He works all things according to His good purpose. When the angels fell only those that had been created mutable fell. When sin entered the world through one man it had already been determined, before the creation of the world, who out of the entire population would be saved.

Even if it was determined/planned or not, it still doesn't solve the question as to why Heaven did not change. Sin entered the world, it changed... when Satan sinned, heaven did not change. It doesn't matter if there are "different angels" the point is sin still entered the place they sinned. There is no where in the bible that even says there is a specific "breed" of angels --the ones that were created mutable either.