SOME PROOF OF CHRIST'S DIETY AND BEING THE CREATOR OF ALL THAT IS.

[keypurr]

I understand your heart friend, but you are wrong. How can you say you understand doctrine if you don't understand this;
In the beginning, who created the heavens and the earth? According to Genesis 1:1, God. According to Colossians 1:16, Jesus. What does this tell you. It should tell you that Jesus is God. What does it tell you friend. I would be interested to know. Who says that the essence must be one person? I believe that God is three persons and that the doctrine is taught though not named. If you find yourself in error, so what. There is nothing wrong with that. It is fixable. Read Jude, one chapter and very informative. Love you friend.

Start at verse 15 friend.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

This speaks of much more than the baby born in Bethlehem. Jesus did not come to be until he was born. Think of the spirit son which God used to create all. Jesus was born human he is not the son that was SENT. The spirit son is the son of man, it was dwelling in Jesus and spoke through him.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Christ is the spiritual son of the most high.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This was the spirit that was in Jesus Christ.

I must get to bed I have to drive the Senior Van in the morning.
God Bless

 

[Bright Raven]

Start at verse 15 friend.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

This speaks of much more than the baby born in Bethlehem. Jesus did not come to be until he was born. Think of the spirit son which God used to create all. Jesus was born human he is not the son that was SENT. The spirit son is the son of man, it was dwelling in Jesus and spoke through him.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Christ is the spiritual son of the most high.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This was the spirit that was in Jesus Christ.

I must get to bed I have to drive the Senior Van in the morning.
God Bless

You avoided my question.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You need to go back to school, learn the meaning of Prototokos and the scriptural application of this word, that firstborn has nothing to do with being a creature, or even being the firstborn in some creature familial birth order, and that the first creation of such said creature would be Protoktisis in the Greek. Paul is clearly speaking to Christ's preeminence in eternity. Clear as the nose on your face, Paul even goes on to describe the role and activities of the Almighty God of the Old Testament. Duh! You're misleading people, contrary to the scripture context of the entire Bible, on who the Lord Jesus is, and always was.

Anyway, we've established you subscribe to the Arian heresy, reducing Christ, who created ALL things, to a creature, who presumably created Himself? What, very God as scripture is most clear on, but some God not of eternity?

Which Arian heresy cult, cut off at the knees by scripture truth, are you? Jehovah's Witnesses?

What negative hypocrisy you speak. Firstly act like a Christian isn't you consider yourself one and secondly the father and the son are NOT utterly equivalent or consubstsntial. Christ as man when he walked the earth was not utterly equivalent to the One Creator GOD. He indeed did not make himself. If he had he would have never been regarded as the son of GOD or the son of man. You wouldn't see the two divided throughout the entire bible. It would say just GOD. Now as Christ is wholly of the holy spirit and without the bindings of flesh you can surely consider him consubstantual.

 

[popsthebuilder]

John 8:58 New International Version (NIV)

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Ref Exodus 3:14


Mark 14:61-62 New International Version (NIV)

61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Again, the I am statement, interesting eh?

Why do you think they were going to crucify him?

You are acting arrogant, foolish, and not like a god loving, neighbor loving Christian, but someone lost in some misplaced pride

Try to clear your mind of indoctrinated bias and read the book.

Peace

 

[popsthebuilder]

Both you and Keypurr are non-believers. No more need be said.

Not true.

It says that if any deny that Jesus is the way to the father they are liars. It also says blasphemy against the holy spirit knowingly will not be forgiven.

Please for your sakes step out from behind the smoke screen, remove the colored lenses from your perception, remove the vail from your eyes. You are misleading others and be held accountable.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You mean: "Why can't God give"

God didn't CREATE Christ. Christ was there from eternity past through eternity future. Christ IS God the Son, the creator of all that is.

Yeah that makes perfect sense

 

[popsthebuilder]

Because He is a jealous God you dolt.

Exodus 20:3-5 New International Version (NIV)

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

So why do you do it?

 

[popsthebuilder]

You truly are a heretic. God has created NO OTHER gods

Then why do you repeatedly claim he did contrary to scripture?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Which is a comment on all of Christianity. Do you REALLY think you are smarter than nearly every Christian that ever lived? REALLY? :think:

(yes you do, sadly. I think fairly highly of myself, but I 'agree' with men who are wiser and smarter than I, just the opposite of you and most Arians/Unitarians on TOL. To say "I've not meant an academic Arian/Unitarian" is true. All I have met, barely finished high school, and some of them did not even do that well.)

So you decided to go with the view that was forced on people through mass murder and pillaging? Yeah I guess they got the majority, also cause/d most atrocities of the era too indirectly of course. Deception of church is approximately 2000 years old. Herd mentality downtown equate to right, it equates to death.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Dear Grosnick,

I believe in Christ's Deity!! Chalk up another one! I believe that, when God said, "Let US make man in Our own Image," He was speaking about Jesus as US, and maybe others too? I do know that Jesus was here from the foundation of this world, because He said so in the Bible. Now if Jesus and God created everything, our Earth was made in the same 6 days that the Heaven and the hosts of Heaven were created. In the same 'week' as God created man and woman. Something to think about!!

God Bless You Tons, GM,

Michael

Good post MC

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

"coarse" means "rough"
"course" means "a series of classes about a particular subject in a school"

Perhaps using "coarse" makes you look dumber than you are?

We all know that a scholar such as yourself wouldn't making any spelling
errors. However, I'll be watching. So, be careful what you post in the
future my friend the moron.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yeah that makes perfect sense

Thanks

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I would more believe the commentaries than your hair-brained theory. Time is running out for you friend. Believe it or not I have only your well -being in mind.

You'd think an eighty year old guy would try to seek the ultimate
truth the closer he gets to meeting his maker? However, Keypurr
holds onto his false, made up doctrine for dear life?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I kind of think if someone (such as Keypurr) denies the Deity of Christ, he'll
wind up standing before God and being judged by his works? Subsequently,
he may spend eternity away from God and Heaven?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

When you are losing a debate, try an appeal to authority and an ad hominem attack?
Really?

Another, other speaks his mind. What little of it there is.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

"coarse" means "rough"
"course" means "a series of classes about a particular subject in a school"

Perhaps using "coarse" makes you look dumber than you are?

How about giving us a testimony of how you became a child of God and
a member of the Body of Christ? Do you have such a testimony? Are
you saved? Will you ignore this post? I kinda think you will.

 

[KingdomRose]

Some believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. However,
the book of Hebrews was written, to and about the Hebrews.
Paul on the other hand was the Apostle to the gentiles.

Verse one of the book of Hebrews states: "God who at various
times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the
prophets," God didn't raise up gentile prophets to go to the
gentile nations, he sent Israelite prophets from Israel to bring
them to repentance. Example: Jonah.

The book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews. Hebrews 1:8-10
states: "8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[a]
10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

God the Father calls His Son, God. God the Father also said,
that His Son laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens
are the work of Your hands.

If God Himself calls His Son, God Who among us can deny
Christ's Deity?

No He does not. Verse 8 is a direct contradiction to verse 9 where it says that the Son has a God. Verse 8 is problematic, and is not the most probable translation of the Hebrew language it is written in in Psalms, or the Greek in Hebrews. Taking rules of grammar to mind, in the translation process, it is most probable that the verse is rendered: "God is your throne forever," not "your throne O God." There is no other way to say "God is your throne forever," but there are other ways to say, "your throne O God." The writer of Hebrews, as was the writer of the Psalm, was trying to say that the Son's God was the source of the Son's power and authority. To say that the power is coming from someone a person would refer to the source of the power as a "throne." The Son's God was the Son's source of power, therefore the Son's God is the Son's throne.

Christ did create everything with his Father, his God. That does not prove he is God. His God GAVE Christ whatever power that Christ had.

For further discussion on this, read Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, an excellent book on the subject.

 

[KingdomRose]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You need to go back to school, learn the meaning of Prototokos and the scriptural application of this word, that firstborn has nothing to do with being a creature, or even being the firstborn in some creature familial birth order, and that the first creation of such said creature would be Protoktisis in the Greek. Paul is clearly speaking to Christ's preeminence in eternity. Clear as the nose on your face, Paul even goes on to describe the role and activities of the Almighty God of the Old Testament. Duh! You're misleading people, contrary to the scripture context of the entire Bible, on who the Lord Jesus is, and always was.

Anyway, we've established you subscribe to the Arian heresy, reducing Christ, who created ALL things, to a creature, who presumably created Himself? What, very God as scripture is most clear on, but some God not of eternity?

Which Arian heresy cult, cut off at the knees by scripture truth, are you? Jehovah's Witnesses?

It appears that YOU need further instruction on what is reasonable and true. We have two words to define, "first" and "born." To be born is to come into existence, to enter the universe as a living being. To be first, as in "first-born," the being would be the very beginning of the creative process of birth---the first one born. It is very simple, and transcends whatever your pastor or priest has told you.

Paul does not go on to describe the God of the O.T.'s actions. He describes what Jesus did, at the behest of the Father. Jesus got whatever power he had FROM the Father, as he said many times.

YOU are misleading people. The entire Bible tells us that Jehovah, the Father, is God Almighty and Jesus is His Son, the "only begotten," the only creation that Jehovah created by Himself alone. Jesus spent over three years telling people about his Father and what his Father wanted him to say and do. (John 5:19)

Scripture is NOT "most clear" on the notion that Jesus is "very God." You get that from somewhere other than the Bible.

"Arianism" was once the accepted view of the Church, but was then outdone by what was politically expedient at the time. It is also interesting to note from early writings of the Church fathers that they took Colossians 1:15 to mean that Jesus was created, and they searched for a way to nullify this in their adherents' minds. It was a big problem to them, so they taught that it meant something else, to appease the powers-that-be.

You are misleading people. Jesus said that there would be "few" who would be his true followers on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13,14) You are on the broad road, so I would like to warn you of your precarious position. Jesus is insulted by your erroneous beliefs. He said that his Father was "the only true God." (John 17:3)

 

[KingdomRose]

Do you notice this in his closing?

I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

Subtly slimy and pathetic. It speaks volumes. They don't love Christ. How do you love somebody you don't even acknowledge, respect, the Personage of? Very God you try and denigrate to creature status? Thomas didn't even have a New Testament, but he had this much sense:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Whatever motivates anybody to tear down the brightest manifestation of very God the earth has ever seen, denigrate the Person of their Creator? It seems to me that's the work of the other guy, not God. You have to also presume they're semi-literate. How do they get past this?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I hate to say it, really do, but the truth is all this Neanderthal, Christ-denying theology from hell, in this day and age when people have every tool imaginable to put truth in their laps, is beyond absurd, and reading these deceptive people, anymore, is a real bore. It's high time some people either grow up, or shut up.

Incidentally, you dig into some of these cults, and they've actually the likes of relegated Jesus Christ to being the angel Michael and purported to be Satan's brother. From Russell to White to Smith there's some genuine, heinous blasphemy, seriously twisted, demonic stuff, make no mistake.

Your ignoring Jesus' Father speaks volumes about you and your twisted beliefs. You say that people who love Jesus' Father "don't love Jesus"! What a slimy thing to say. Jesus said many times, "I love the Father." Is Jesus wacked?

You pick out the lamest verses to prove your point. What Thomas said is up for debate. He seemingly contradicted everything else that John wrote down. Who knows? Maybe Thomas was just uttering an exclamation, the same as we say today when something awesome faces us: "Oh my God!" You know---OMG. No biggie. Certainly John would have clearly said that Jesus is God, but he wrote at the end of chapter 20: "These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON of God; and that believing you may have life in his name." You notice that John wrote "the SON of God," not God. God cannot be His own Son.

All you can do to prove Jesus is God is to cite verses that can be taken more than one way, or, verses that scholars say have been tampered with. Your "proofs" are at the least, suspect; at the most, ridiculous.

How do we "get past" Isaiah 9:6,7? Easy....with a little knowledge of the Hebrew words for "Mighty God." First of all, there is no punctuation in Hebrew, nor are there upper or lower case letters. Just because "God" is capitalized doesn't mean anything. That's the English translators' own bias coming out. Secondly, "mighty god" is El Gibbohr in Hebrew. It is different from the Hebrew word for "almighty god"--El Shaddai.

Do you have a clue? Jesus is referred to as a mighty god, but NOT almighty god. He is never called Almighty God, anywhere in the Bible (not even in Revelation, which refers to the Father). Only the Father, Jehovah, is called "El Shaddai," God Almighty.

"God" is a term that means simply a powerful, important individual. When God Almighty is being referred to, there is always an article in front of "god," in Greek, and in Hebrew it's simply "El Shaddai." Something new to you?

You are no better than White or Smith. They taught some really weird stuff, but you are also. From Charles Taze Russell down to today, JWs have honored Christ as the most important person in the universe next to his Father (who he called "my God"). Why does it matter whether or not he was created? I don't understand your objection to that fact.

JWs look to Jesus alone as our King. We don't even vote for anyone else. He is so real to us that we won't put a mere man in his place. You do, though, right? You will honor and support the crazy politics of this world, even signing up for the military so you can learn how to kill, am I right? Jesus' teachings go out the window when it's time to vote or go to war. We take his teachings seriously and live by them. Our big convention last Summer was entitled "Be Like Jesus." Yet you think we don't care about him? Wake up.

:kookoo:

 

[Lon]

I wish I had more, but do not think for one moment that it is needed, Peter was a fisherman yet he was given the spirit of truth. If you believe in Christ listen to him not what you have learned from church.

You can not buy what I have been given Lon.

John 4:22 You Samaritans (cults, Unitarians etc. by extension) worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the main thing; get wisdom; and with all your getting (though it cost all you have) get understanding.

Matthew 23:3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

If you can't give it away, you are correct that I couldn't buy it either. Worse? You can't pay people to 'like' Arian/Unitarian. "If I am wrong" is huge for both of us. At stake is the God we worship as well as the way we worship Him. "Depart from me, I never knew you" is on the table for not knowing Him, but more importantly, Him not knowing us. Remember, you are on a triune board causing a stink. I am not on a Unitarian/Arian board, nor am I in the minority. More so, you Arians/Unitarians do not even agree with one another and are often trying to 'correct' one another here on TOL. This kind of thing doesn't happen regarding a triune view. We discuss it, but we don't go about trying to assert what either an education OR what we 'feel' the Lord taught us against another.

Arians/Unitarians have walked a troublesome walk on and off TOL. I genuinely do not think God will or can correct the Church (if we were wrong) with such a contentious lot. You should really rethink the logistics of your self-appointed reasons for being on TOL as well as the manner in which you shove this ill-mannered 'revelation' of yours. It has every earmark of the cults that have preceded you in the endeavor including being 'wrong' let alone contentious as well as arrogant/prideful in conveyance, and sadly, without the tools necessary 'to even know' what you are talking about. English, for me, is a requirement. A good handle on language, is essential and necessary. There is no reason to be an Arian/Unitarian on TOL if you lack those because you are greatly against those who do possess those abilities. They also, necessarily, point to whether or not you can be seen to 'reasonably' understand scriptures as they are given. Without it, it is just guys being a pain but with no credentials, given by God (doubtful) or otherwise. The Apostles each wrote books. You? :nono: They weren't that unlearned!