ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW

[oatmeal]

Do you understand eternal life as John defined it, KNOWING God...?



So that now we can be faithless and live forever??



So if you are saturated with the Holy Spirit, do you HAVE eternal Life? And if yes, they why did the OT saints NOT gain perfection?



OK - This gets to the nub - The Gift - What is it? What is Salvation now that the OT Prophets and Holy Ones did not have?

Arsenios

Is your first statement a reference to John 17:3?

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

the word "that" indicates purpose.

the purpose of eternal life is that we might know the only true God and Jesus Christ who God sent.

Learning about God and His son will take all eternity

We can know we have eternal life and continue to sin.

Others who have eternal life and don't know it continue to sin.

Those who do not have eternal life continue to sin.

If a person considers having eternal life license to sin, then they do not really and truly appreciate what eternal life is.

Some people when rescued from a life threatening situation take an inventory of their lives and choose to improve it.

Others, don't care and continue to live recklessly as they did before.

How we respond to having to received the gift of eternal life is our choice, but should we choose to be wise about it, we have plenty to learn from scriptures as to how to "lay hold on eternal life" and use that to glorify God to the maximum.

Note that in the parable in Luke 15, the son of the forgiving father, was still the father's son even while he was out partying and wasting his life away. Yet the father looked forward to his return and when he saw him a great ways off ran out to meet him and welcomed him back. The son even when living foolishly was still a son to the father. Same with us. Even though we find ourselves living foolishly at times, God is looking for us to come to our senses and return to Him and live accordingly

 

[Cross Reference]

I think you meant to ask when did they FIRST know...

When they encountered Him in the flesh... [the 12 minus Judas]

No

When He arose from the dead...

No

When they received reports of Him in the flesh... [Luke and the Ethiopian]

????

When they encountered Him in the Spirit AFTER He was in the flesh... [Paul]
And on and on...

Yes.

But not before did they know He was God in the flesh until after His resurrection and even then Thomas wouldn't believe until he touched Him.

So why believe was God until He had finished His mission He had to perform WITHOUT being God? If you believe Jesus was God before His time earth time was complete then you have every reason to believe we cannot be like Him.

That said, John wrote about Jesus only after all that came to light. see John 1:1,2, 14.

The eternal Word is now flesh and bone __ permanently.

 

[Arsenios]

I am not saved
so
it does matter what I do

does it matter what you do?

Yes, each and every day...

There is no height from which one cannot fall...

Lucifer fell...

Arsenios

 

[chrysostom]

Yes, each and every day...

There is no height from which one cannot fall...

Lucifer fell...

Arsenios

so it is still possible for you not to be saved?

 

[Arsenios]

Is your first statement a reference to John 17:3?

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Yes...

the word "that" indicates purpose.

Indeed - It is an " 'ina" clause...

the purpose of eternal life is that we might know the only true God and Jesus Christ who God sent.

Well, that is true...

Learning about God and His son will take all eternity

Indeed...

So here is the question... To what then does "THIS" (eternal life) refer? If it does NOT refer to what follows, then it must refer to what precedes... And what precedes is what the Son "WILL BD GIVING" (future indicative), which does not seem to fit the bill of the IS of estin, which normally indicates a definition... Perhaps eternal life is being defined in terms of its purpose... I had, up to this point, simply assumed the definition to be the knowing itself... eg "that they should be knowing the One True God..." But you are right, the 'ina clause normally means purpose, but can mean simply 'that' [which implies purpose as well...]

We can know we have eternal life and continue to sin.

The text does not support this... It speaks of knowing God, not knowing our possession of eternal life... And it does not address the issue of continuing in our sins...

Others who have eternal life and don't know it continue to sin.

You have not given a basis for this idea...

Those who do not have eternal life continue to sin.

Then with respect to living in our sins, there is no difference between eternal life and death...??

If a person considers having eternal life license to sin, then they do not really and truly appreciate what eternal life is.

It is not a good idea, for sure!

Some people when rescued from a life threatening situation take an inventory of their lives and choose to improve it.

Others, don't care and continue to live recklessly as they did before.

But they are saved no matter what? But living recklessly will send them into ANOTHER life threatening situation...

How we respond to having to received the gift of eternal life is our choice, but should we choose to be wise about it, we have plenty to learn from scriptures as to how to "lay hold on eternal life" and use that to glorify God to the maximum.

This is a nub in the West, where God approaches people whom He foreknew and preselected, and gives them a TASTE of eternal Life... This is termed the CALL of God to them... It is not the "Permanent Gift of Eternal Life." Their response determines their justification by God...

Note that in the parable in Luke 15, the son of the forgiving father, was still the father's son even while he was out partying and wasting his life away. Yet the father looked forward to his return and when he saw him a great ways off ran out to meet him and welcomed him back. The son even when living foolishly was still a son to the father. Same with us. Even though we find ourselves living foolishly at times, God is looking for us to come to our senses and return to Him and live accordingly

for this thy brother was dead,
and is alive again;
and was lost,
and is found.

So yes, he was still the Father's son...
He was the Father's DEAD son...
Whom the Father still loves...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

so it is still possible for you not to be saved?

It is possible to lose Salvation...

It is easy...

Just return to the vomit of your former sin-determined life...

You will remove yourself from God's Grace...

Paul wrote about it...

Fit only for burning...

Arsenios

 

[chrysostom]

It is possible to lose Salvation...

It is easy...

Just return to the vomit of your former sin-determined life...

You will remove yourself from God's Grace...

Paul wrote about it...

Fit only for burning...

Arsenios

so you really can't say you are saved in the first place

 

[Arsenios]

The eternal Word is now flesh and bone __ permanently.

I could not agree more...

He is BOTH God AND man...

Flesh and Blood now abide at the Right Hand of the Most High...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

so you really can't say you are saved in the first place

What I SAY does not matter...

I was saved when I was Baptized...

I am being saved each and every day and hour and millisecond...

I will be saved at the Last Judgement...

IF I persevere to the end...

Which is my great Joy...

Arsenios

 

[TFTn5280]

There is another small matter...

Had Adam NEVER sinned...

Christ would STILL have incarnated...

It was His Plan for man all along...

To incarnate...

That He JOIN sinless Adam to Himself...

But Adam DID sin...

And Adam NEEDED to be sinless in order to be joined with God in the flesh (of both)...

And THAT is why Christ ascended the Cross...

To DEFEAT the ENEMY who had duped Adam into sin...

And who was collecting his reward, our souls...

THAT enemy is Death...

Christ first overcame Death in His Own Body...

Then in the bodies of the members of His Body, the Church...

And Death will itself be the last to be overcome...

At the Second Coming and the Last Judgement...

So our Baptism is unto sinless purity of soul that we join with Christ...

And thereafter, we live repentant lives...

Preserving the purity of Baptism in confession and repentance...

Running the race set before us...

Persevering to the end...

Orthodoxy 101

Arsenios

Do you consider death the only enemy that Christ defeated or do you consider such things as sin and the devil enemies that he defeated as well? Gustaf Aulen writes on this, calling Christ Christus Victor.

 

[Daniel1611]

What I SAY does not matter...

I was saved when I was Baptized...

I am being saved each and every day and hour and millisecond...

I will be saved at the Last Judgement...

IF I persevere to the end...

Which is my great Joy...

Arsenios

So you're working for salvation?

 

[Arsenios]

Do you consider death the only enemy that Christ defeated or do you consider such things as sin and the devil enemies that he defeated as well? Gustaf Aulen writes on this, calling Christ Christus Victor.

Pretty much - Hades willingly received Him because He died, which is the key element of the deception of the deceiver... So that by the greed for souls which Hades exercised, Christ entered by consent, and then was Hades despoiled...

The language of Paul is crucial, for he tells us with great precision the relationship of sin and death in the world:

Rom_5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men,
for which [death] all have sinned:

So that Adam's sin brought death, as God had warned, and death was then passed on to all of Adam's progeny... We do not inherit sin, or even a sin nature, as some like to say... We inherit DEATH... And it is our inheritance of death that is the reason for our sinning...

So that Christ as a dead man was able to overcome death in Hades because He had never sinned, and the world had nothing in him... He had to put off from himself His spirit in order to separate His soul from His body... The cross did not kill Him... And that paid for His ticket into hades...

Indeed, Christ's entire incarnation can be seen as a clandestine operation into enemy territory, including His flight to Egypt...

For us in Christ, we have to battle our sins... Christ battled and destroyed death in Himself, so that we in Him CAN overcome our sins... Which the Circumcision could not do under Levitical Law... With the exception of the Prophets sent by God...

So yes! We chant this Troparion on Pascha:

Christ is Risen...
From the Dead...
Trampling down Death...
By Death...
And upon those in the tombs...
Bestowing Life!

This is the great triumphal song of the Resurrection...

You can hear it sung all over the world here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SynvdFT-rqU

Arsenios

 

[patrick jane]

Do you consider death the only enemy that Christ defeated or do you consider such things as sin and the devil enemies that he defeated as well? Gustaf Aulen writes on this, calling Christ Christus Victor.

Jesus Christ defeated death, sin, and satan. yes - atrol:

 

[Arsenios]

So you're working for salvation?

Living it...

How 'bout you?

Living is a lot of work...

Struggle against sin...

Overcoming powers and principalities...

Falling down...

Getting back up...

Suffering temptations...

How 'bout you?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So you're working for salvation?

Is following Christ a work?

Does it take work to follow Christ?

Do you follow Christ?

Arsenios

 

[Krsto]

Living it...

How 'bout you?

Living is a lot of work...

Struggle against sin...

Overcoming powers and principalities...

Falling down...

Getting back up...

Suffering temptations...

How 'bout you?

Arsenios

Splendid and very to the point! Some Evangelicals will never be satisfied with this until they realize there is a difference between "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" as you describe here and as in reality we all do whether we know it or not, and are called to do in scripture, vs. "working to get saved," which is what Paul came against when he wrote "salvation is by grace, and not by works, lest any man should boast."

 

[Krsto]

Not in the least have I turned. However, in your replies I see works to be more primary then grace. For instance, what do you mean "when man responds to God" and then presume to mark out his path, by works, to his salvation. Question: Can you make the distinction between God's "Redemption" by Jesus Christ and His "Salvation", also by Jesus Christ? Can you explain it?

I never presume to "mark out a path" to salvation. I will be the last one to give you a list of things to do to get saved. By God's grace we are saved. We are saved today by grace and if we continue till death then forever after death. If God didn't have grace we could turn to him and it would do no good. His grace saves us. Our response to him is simply what he expects from us. Call it works if you want but it's not the works based salvation Paul came against when he said "we are saved by faith and not by works lest any man should boast." You seem to want to eliminate works from our salvation, which of course makes it hard to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord." Let's not remove either works or grace as a part of that life-long process of salvation that begins the day we are saved. We just need to remove working in order to get saved. We should not be asking, "What must I do to get saved?" (though Jesus did answer that and did say love God and love neighbor), we should be asking, "Now that I have turned to God (repented), what can I do to be what God wants me to be?" The turning to God is really quite easy and available to all who hear it and the invitation all the more inviting knowing that the Kingdom of Heaven is here now and provides righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. It should no longer be a slavish "what MUST I do to be saved," but a grace and power-filled "How much closer to God can he get me as I walk this walk of salvation?" even when the steps are difficult due to the reality of the life we live. Does that make sense? If you view salvation only as a legal position or acquittal then you might not be enjoying the joy of salvation as God washes your sin every day and helps you to rise up and walk in newness of life. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[Cross Reference]

Oatmeal writes this purposed distorted understanding of John 17:3:

Quote:

the purpose of eternal life is that we might know the only true God and Jesus Christ who God sent.

It is NOT the purpose of eternal life but, the result of pursing God by Jesus Christ that ends in ultimate intimacy with His Father for all eternity! Etch it in stone, oats.

 

[Cross Reference]

I could not agree more...

He is BOTH God AND man...

Flesh and Blood now abide at the Right Hand of the Most High...

Arsenios

Important, WRONG! Flesh and Bone now abide at the right hand of God most high.

The only reason for the blood in creation was to make the way possible to affect the procreation of ALL mankind by one man, either for good or bad.. Think not?? Who could have saved all of mankind if mankind was a bloodless creation?? Fallen angels could never have been the sons of God mentioned in Genesis for that reason. It is also the reason why there is no redemption for them, as well.

Whose Blood eventually redeemed mankind after the blood of mankind had been contaminated by that other man, Adam?, Jesus, Who now abides at the righthand of God as Glorified HUMAN Flesh and BONE.