ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW

[chrysostom]

Ask a catholic friend. You just want to argue. I 'm not interested.

argue?
of course
so
what do you call what you do?

ar·gue
ˈärɡyo͞o/
verb
verb: argue; 3rd person present: argues; past tense: argued; past participle: argued; gerund or present participle: arguing

1.
give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea

 

[Cross Reference]

argue?
of course
so
what do you call what you do?

ar·gue
ˈärɡyo͞o/
verb
verb: argue; 3rd person present: argues; past tense: argued; past participle: argued; gerund or present participle: arguing

1.
give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea

I gave all that but you don't know when to quit by going circular and asking more questions that go nowhere. I'm done answering. If you have a statement I can reply to, I will do it, otherwise, I won't.

 

[Arsenios]

How can one even begin to do that without being born again? And then how can one do it without the power of Pentecost in his life?

One can not...

It would be very rare...

Not in these times...

I suspect that you just rebutted your previous accusation which you directed at me a few pages back... I deserve worse accusations, mind you... But some of yours are simply mistaken...

So thank-you...

But back to the OP -

So the Old Testament Saints were not born again, they were not Baptized into Christ, they had no Pentecost of the Holy Spirit, and they were far, far greater than the likes of us will ever be as human persons... The had more of the Holy Spirit than most of us will ever pretend to even imagine [it cannot BE imagined, mind you]... They walked in Power unknown to us... Who, with Elijah, has closed the heavens of late for 3 years and 6 months as a punishment for an unrighteous king? Who has brought a dead son of a widow back to life? Who has brought God's Fire down upon a Sacrifice?

So what is it that the Christian Baptized into the Kingdom of Heaven (following his having begun repenting in response to the Call of God Who foreknew and preselected him) HAS that makes him or her GREATER THAN these OT Prophets and Saints who wielded so much more POWER than this Baptized Christian?

You CANNOT SAY the Holy Spirit, for they all were drenched in the Holy Spirit...

And you cannot say Christ in Spirit, for they all SPOKE with the pre-incarnate Christ, the Word of God, a lot in Spirit...

And you cannot say Christ in the Flesh, because Christ departed at His Ascension into Heaven (to come again)...

And you cannot say that the Christian has simply committed himself to Christ and had a Spiritual experience confirming it privately...

And the answer is that the Baptized Christian is a New Creation IN Christ,
Who not only has had all his sins washed away in the Baptismal waters...
Who not only has been filled with the Holy Spirit through Anointing...
But who also is now a NEW PERSON in Christ...
Whose Nous is not only illumined as was that of Adam before the Fall...
But whose very PERSON, his hypostasis, which stands under ALL that he or she ever does, is now joined together with the Hypostasis, the very Person, of Christ-God... NOT in Power, but in Person...

It is THIS New Creation, because it is joined together with Christ, that is, because of that fact, GREATER THAN ANY of those Great Prophets and Saints of the Old Testament...

This is why Scripture tells us we are "Baptized INTO Christ..."

And ONLY Christ can Baptize you into Himself...

And He does so bodily by human fleshy hands...

As He Himself was Baptized in Jordan's waters...

By the man, John the Baptist...

As was Paul baptized into Christ...

At the hands of Ananias...

Who filled him with the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Death being the only enemy, why then did he not just die as a baby?

Oh, I doubtless mis-wrote... Not the only enemy... But fundamentally the last one to be destroyed... Now only overcome, but not destroyed, in the Body of Christ...

God will destroy Death at the end of this fallen creation...

Disobedience was the primal sin of Adam and Eve... In their desire to be AS GOD... So Christ incarnated and lived as man long enough so that we should know ourselves how to follow Him in His obedience to the Father... He chose death on the cross because it was voluntary, shameful, and filled with great agony, which would not have been possible as a baby, nor instructive for us all...

His Body on earth includes adults, and being Baptized into His Death on the Cross, we come to live as mature ones raising children...

So I mis-spoke...

Thank-you for the good question...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So you're working for salvation?

Is following Christ a work?

Does it take work to follow Christ?

Do you follow Christ?

Arsenios

 

[Cross Reference]

But back to the OP -

So the Old Testament Saints were not born again, they were not Baptized into Christ, they had no Pentecost of the Holy Spirit, and they were far, far greater than the likes of us will ever be as human persons... The had more of the Holy Spirit than most of us will ever pretend to even imagine [it cannot BE imagined, mind you]... They walked in Power unknown to us... Who, with Elijah, has closed the heavens of late for 3 years and 6 months as a punishment for an unrighteous king? Who has brought a dead son of a widow back to life? Who has brought God's Fire down upon a Sacrifice?

Forget all the rest. What you say above is balderdash. You are simply spouting off words that you can't apply to anything in the OT that can't be related to the NT coming of the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ. And to say they walked in power unknown to us only points up the shallowness of teaching you have received that has usurped God to set up its own system of religious influence __mother acting like Father.

 

[Cross Reference]

And ONLY Christ can Baptize you into Himself...
Arsenios

This is too easy but so much to address as to be non-profitable.

But let me just reply with this because it is so elementary: Jesus never baptized anyone into Himself. Would you like me to post the scriptures or perhaps you might want to ask around for yourself or pick up a 101 book and search it out for yourself?

 

[Krsto]

Die to self. That is the "works of God" for every man new born from above. That is the cross we must pick up every morning. Dying to self is the beginning of our journey on the agape road that leads us home to Father's House. When you cross the "deathline" you will find Jesus as being the Alpha and Omega of your journey. He must lead the way and it is not a way of presumption or "lawlessness" in Him where we are allowed to do our own 'spiritual' thing in His name and believe it is OK. Jesus said, "I only do what I see My Father doing". We are given to do no differently. If you are willing, this should give you better understanding of John 17:3.

For those who had never heard of Christ but "die to self" anyway, such as most mothers who dedicate their whole selves to their children and care not for themselves - I saw this first-hand with my wife the mother of our 5 kids - are they not also born from above? You make the mistake of limiting "born from above" to an acknowledgement of Christ as Savior when Jesus never put any limits on it, but rather said it hard to define - it's like the wind and you don't know where it came from or where it went. What Jesus did was call all men to die to self in greater ways and for the wicked who were completely selfish (including teenagers LOL!) he gave a very powerful example of death to self and rising to walk in newness of life that would help them repent and head in the right direction. You error in thinking all men who have ever lived need to repent of their sins before they can be accepted with God. You keep preaching a made up religion.

 

[Krsto]

This is too easy but so much to address as to be non-profitable.

But let me just reply with this because it is so elementary: Jesus never baptized anyone into Himself. Would you like me to post the scriptures or perhaps you might want to ask around for yourself or pick up a 101 book and search it out for yourself?

Jesus came to baptize in the Holy Spirit. That IS a baptism into him.

 

[Krsto]

What was the Rock He said He would build it upon? Peter?? Not a chance.. If a man is who you believe to be the "rock", why not pick Paul? He had more revelations than Peter.

The question should be "HOW is Peter the Rock?" Just read Acts 2 and following and you will see HOW he was the Rock on which Jesus built his church. Jesus did use other men after he used Peter but the church was founded on Peter, not Paul or anyone after him. Does that make him the pope? No, it makes him the Rock.

 

[Cross Reference]

The question should be "HOW is Peter the Rock?" Just read Acts 2 and following and you will see HOW he was the Rock on which Jesus built his church. Jesus did use other men after he used Peter but the church was founded on Peter, not Paul or anyone after him. Does that make him the pope? No, it makes him the Rock.

The question should be "why is it that it is believed it refers to Peter"? There was nothing of Peter that any church should be founded upon except that which was revealed to him by God which was the ROCK upon which, the absolute Truth of it, was that which Jesus established His Church. What Peter uttered was larger than him.

Surely, you don't want to argue with the Truth, do you?

Question: BTW, what was that Truth Peter uttered?

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus came to baptize in the Holy Spirit.

Which the "coming upon" of the Holy Spirit.

That IS a baptism into him.

It isn't, however, if you believe it is, show where it says that in the "written word" of God, which would be contrary to what I wrote?

 

[Krsto]

Which the "coming upon" of the Holy Spirit.



It isn't, however, if you believe it is, show where it says that in the "written word" of God, which would be contrary to what I wrote?

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church:

Note - the above has nothing to do with water baptism.

 

[Krsto]

The question should be "why is it that it is believed it refers to Peter"? There was nothing of Peter that any church should be founded upon except that which was revealed to him by God which was the ROCK upon which, the absolute Truth of it, was that which Jesus established His Church. What Peter uttered was larger than him.

Surely, you don't want to argue with the Truth, do you?

Question: BTW, what was that Truth Peter uttered?

I used to think Peter's proclamation was the Rock back when I had to have another Rock other than Peter because I wanted to refute Catholic doctrine about Peter so I accepted this nonsense. I've since then realized I don't need to find a different rock than the obvious one - thou art Peter and upon this rock - because I wasn't asking the right questions and seeing just how Peter was the Rock - in a totally different way than what the RCC teaches. I know you like scriptural cross references (since that's your name) and Acts 2 and following is your cross reference. It's all right there.

 

[Arsenios]

Forget all the rest. What you say above is balderdash. You are simply spouting off words that you can't apply to anything in the OT that can't be related to the NT coming of the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ. And to say they walked in power unknown to us only points up the shallowness of teaching you have received that has usurped God to set up its own system of religious influence __mother acting like Father.

Mat_15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth
come forth from the heart;
and they defile the man.

A.

 

[Arsenios]

This is too easy but so much to address as to be non-profitable.

But let me just reply with this because it is so elementary: Jesus never baptized anyone into Himself. Would you like me to post the scriptures or perhaps you might want to ask around for yourself or pick up a 101 book and search it out for yourself?

Are you just having a bad day?

A.

 

[Levolor]

I never presume to "mark out a path" to salvation. I will be the last one to give you a list of things to do to get saved. By God's grace we are saved. We are saved today by grace and if we continue till death then forever after death. If God didn't have grace we could turn to him and it would do no good. His grace saves us. Our response to him is simply what he expects from us. Call it works if you want but it's not the works based salvation Paul came against when he said "we are saved by faith and not by works lest any man should boast." You seem to want to eliminate works from our salvation, which of course makes it hard to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord." Let's not remove either works or grace as a part of that life-long process of salvation that begins the day we are saved. We just need to remove working in order to get saved. We should not be asking, "What must I do to get saved?" (though Jesus did answer that and did say love God and love neighbor), we should be asking, "Now that I have turned to God (repented), what can I do to be what God wants me to be?" The turning to God is really quite easy and available to all who hear it and the invitation all the more inviting knowing that the Kingdom of Heaven is here now and provides righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. It should no longer be a slavish "what MUST I do to be saved," but a grace and power-filled "How much closer to God can he get me as I walk this walk of salvation?" even when the steps are difficult due to the reality of the life we live. Does that make sense? If you view salvation only as a legal position or acquittal then you might not be enjoying the joy of salvation as God washes your sin every day and helps you to rise up and walk in newness of life. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

Amen.

Praise God!

Amen.

 

[Arsenios]

Amen.

Praise God!

Amen.

You are such a bright splash!

So Scripture tells us that we are baptized into Christ, and indeed into His Death on the Cross, yes? That is what Paul tells us... And he tells us that as many as habe been baptized INTO Christ, have PUT ON Christ...

Now many here, under the influence of the Protestant Western Tradition, believe that there is such a thing as a "Spirit Baptism" that is actually Baptism into Christ, and that any baptism in water may be nice and pious but is NOT a Spirit Baptism... I think this is a fairly standard formulation for a fairly common belief held here by many... And many hold that baptism is BY the Holy Spirit, and INTO the Holy Spirit, and that this bestows Power, as it did at Pentecost, so that Baptism by the Spirit is a bestowal of the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Yet Paul tells us we are baptized into Christ, and NOT into the Holyu Spirit... And Acts 10 tells us that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his party, and that THEN Peter had them baptized... And we know that they were baptized into Christ because that is what Paul tells us that baptism does for the one being baptized... The text in Acts 10 does NOT SAY that the Holy Spirit baptized Cornelius or anyone else... It plainly tells us that Peter did the Baptism, and this BECAUSE the Gentiles were GIVEN the Holy Spirit just like the Jews had been given the Holy Spirit...

And we know that Paul was himself baptized by Ananias and was given the Holy Spirit by him...

So the idea of a Spirit Baptism is not attested by Scripture... All the baptisms mentioned in Scripture were done by men in the flesh... And nowhere in Scripture do we find words saying that the Holy Spirit DOES any baptizing at all...

And just as the Jews escaping Pharoah crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land, but the demon-enraged hordes of Pharoah and his army were drowned in the waters through which the Israelites had just passed through, so also, when we are baptized into Christ, who Himself was baptized by John's hands in the boundary waters of the Promised Land, Jordan River, so also are we baptized in water that our demonic hordes of sins are washed away, and we escape their pursuit of us, and enter into the Promised Land which is fulfilled by Christ, which is the Body of Christ...

The Living Body of Christ IS the Promise Land, the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ Himself, upon this earth, and the boundary of that Heavenly Kingdom where Christ is King, is Baptism into Christ, and THEN the anointing with the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

 

[Simon Baker]

You are such a bright splash!

So Scripture tells us that we are baptized into Christ, and indeed into His Death on the Cross, yes? That is what Paul tells us... And he tells us that as many as habe been baptized INTO Christ, have PUT ON Christ...

Now many here, under the influence of the Protestant Western Tradition, believe that there is such a thing as a "Spirit Baptism" that is actually Baptism into Christ, and that any baptism in water may be nice and pious but is NOT a Spirit Baptism... I think this is a fairly standard formulation for a fairly common belief held here by many... And many hold that baptism is BY the Holy Spirit, and INTO the Holy Spirit, and that this bestows Power, as it did at Pentecost, so that Baptism by the Spirit is a bestowal of the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Yet Paul tells us we are baptized into Christ, and NOT into the Holyu Spirit... And Acts 10 tells us that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his party, and that THEN Peter had them baptized... And we know that they were baptized into Christ because that is what Paul tells us that baptism does for the one being baptized... The text in Acts 10 does NOT SAY that the Holy Spirit baptized Cornelius or anyone else... It plainly tells us that Peter did the Baptism, and this BECAUSE the Gentiles were GIVEN the Holy Spirit just like the Jews had been given the Holy Spirit...

And we know that Paul was himself baptized by Ananias and was given the Holy Spirit by him...

So the idea of a Spirit Baptism is not attested by Scripture... All the baptisms mentioned in Scripture were done by men in the flesh... And nowhere in Scripture do we find words saying that the Holy Spirit DOES any baptizing at all...

And just as the Jews escaping Pharoah crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land, but the demon-enraged hordes of Pharoah and his army were drowned in the waters through which the Israelites had just passed through, so also, when we are baptized into Christ, who Himself was baptized by John's hands in the boundary waters of the Promised Land, Jordan River, so also are we baptized in water that our demonic hordes of sins are washed away, and we escape their pursuit of us, and enter into the Promised Land which is fulfilled by Christ, which is the Body of Christ...

The Living Body of Christ IS the Promise Land, the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ Himself, upon this earth, and the boundary of that Heavenly Kingdom where Christ is King, is Baptism into Christ, and THEN the anointing with the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

What If One Is "Baptized" By Water, Before Knowing The "Meaning" ?

 

[Levolor]

Wow, there's a tremendous amount of info in your post! Not that I mind.

You are such a bright splash!

:surf:

Water... love being around it. Lakes, ocean... not so much rivers. Used to swim a great deal when younger, mostly pool and ocean. Then there was the scuba diving too.

So Scripture tells us that we are baptized into Christ, and indeed into His Death on the Cross, yes? That is what Paul tells us... And he tells us that as many as habe been baptized INTO Christ, have PUT ON Christ...

That's right.

Now many here, under the influence of the Protestant Western Tradition, believe that there is such a thing as a "Spirit Baptism" that is actually Baptism into Christ, and that any baptism in water may be nice and pious but is NOT a Spirit Baptism... I think this is a fairly standard formulation for a fairly common belief held here by many... And many hold that baptism is BY the Holy Spirit, and INTO the Holy Spirit, and that this bestows Power, as it did at Pentecost, so that Baptism by the Spirit is a bestowal of the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Well, that may be the belief, but I don't agree with it all. I'll tell you why below.

Yet Paul tells us we are baptized into Christ, and NOT into the Holy Spirit...

I don't recall this.

And Acts 10 tells us that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his party, and that THEN Peter had them baptized... And we know that they were baptized into Christ because that is what Paul tells us that baptism does for the one being baptized... The text in Acts 10 does NOT SAY that the Holy Spirit baptized Cornelius or anyone else... It plainly tells us that Peter did the Baptism, and this BECAUSE the Gentiles were GIVEN the Holy Spirit just like the Jews had been given the Holy Spirit...

I'm listening.

And we know that Paul was himself baptized by Ananias and was given the Holy Spirit by him...

Now, I think I am getting the drift of what you are saying.

It's true that those with the Holy Spirit in them, can transfer Him to another.

So the idea of a Spirit Baptism is not attested by Scripture...

Here is where I was going to tell you why I didn't agree with all of what the Western belief was. And, this is a good place for me to show what I think attests to Spirit baptism.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11

Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and also with fire, which I believe is the baptism that Christ had to undergo when He was crucified. We too will have this same excruciatingly painful baptism when we are crucified into Christ.

But! We don't have to, literally, have the crucifixion by death on a cross. Christ showed us where the death of our self/ego/old man/carnal man would occur. In the Garden when He said: Thy will be done, not mine.

This was done before His death, but praise God! Jesus showed by His life all the steps we will take when we follow Him.

All the baptisms mentioned in Scripture were done by men in the flesh... And nowhere in Scripture do we find words saying that the Holy Spirit DOES any baptizing at all...

It is implied otherwise in Matthew 3:11, but... Persons with the Holy Spirit are filled with Christ and can pass that Spirit on. They are anointed to do so, therefore they have the power (Holy Spirit) and authority to pass the Holy Spirit onto others. These are those who have the Spirit within them as well as being in the body of Christ.

And just as the Jews escaping Pharoah crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land, but the demon-enraged hordes of Pharoah and his army were drowned in the waters through which the Israelites had just passed through, so also, when we are baptized into Christ, who Himself was baptized by John's hands in the boundary waters of the Promised Land, Jordan River, so also are we baptized in water that our demonic hordes of sins are washed away, and we escape their pursuit of us, and enter into the Promised Land which is fulfilled by Christ, which is the Body of Christ...

Alrighty...

The Living Body of Christ IS the Promise Land, the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ Himself, upon this earth, and the boundary of that Heavenly Kingdom where Christ is King, is Baptism into Christ, and THEN the anointing with the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Amen. Though... Matthew 3:11 mentions Holy Spirit first and fire secondly. The order in which things are mentioned matter, I believe.

It seems to me, and I could be mistaken, but the baptism of fire is for those who are chosen to minister in some way or other as mentioned in Ephesians 4:11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.

Nevertheless, 1 Peter 3:21 supports your saying that baptism saves:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

Gotta include the following verse: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Hallelujah!

There's also the one baptism...

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:5-6

This is the one where it is written in John 17:3 that:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

It may be heretical?, but I believe that salvation is in steps, stages... from that first water baptism to the last one. In between those degrees, we see that Christ Himself fell under the weight of His cross. We too will fail under the weight of our own cross, and will also require the help of others to get us to the planting of our own cross on that hill of Golgotha, and truly be over-comers of this world as Christ wants, has given us instructions for and has died for us. It's why Our Father continually draws us to Him so that He may present us to Christ for Him to raise us up on that last day.

Baptisms...

It can all be very confusing. It's all God though! May we all have all that God has for us.