ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW

[andyc]

And Cheese!

You can only be one with the Father by entering the Kingdom of Heaven through Baptism into Christ and becoming a member of His Body, the Ekklesia...

The question is: "Who is the One DOING the baptizing INTO Christ?"

And the Answer is Christ, at the hands of His Baptized Servants...

The Holy Spirit does NOT baptize...

He is the Spirit WITHIN WHOM Christ baptized...

He is the Spirit Who is GIVEN by Christ, through the hands of His Servants in His Body...

There is not even one passage that shows the Holy Spirit DOING a Baptism...

Human hands only do so, in obedience to Christ...


Arsenios

I can see what you're saying, but I think the passage in question is talking about a person's inauguration into the body of Christ, which of course is mystical. The church is a heavenly body on earth, and as such is a witness of the kingdom of God.
The work of regeneration / recreation within is a work of the Holy Spirit, and as a result of this, we become members of the body of Christ. And so there is the literal, experiential, and mystical that must be taken into consideration depending on context.

 

[Livelystone]

The KJV, which I love, is, after all, a TRANSLATION, a VERSION, of the Bible which was written, for the most part in the New Testament at least, in Greek... So whenever I find something being said that is being proven by ANY translation which seems awry somehow, I first go to the Greek Bible to see what is actually written... The KJV is not always accurate in its rendering of the Greek text, and the enemy is always looking for some way to exploit anything it can...

And more than that, Bibles are interpreted according to one's beliefs, and the translation will reflect those beliefs... Puritans, for instance, did not like part of the Bible, and removed the Deuterocanonicals from it...

But the word translated here as BY is the Greek word EN, Strong's #1722, and it means IN, WITHIN, and AMONG... It does not mean BY... That would only be a proper translation IF there were no EN or other preposition...

Arsenios

Your point may be valid but if the truth of what faith consist of is taught to the church, makes the meaning between the difference of "in" or "by" to be moot (as far as the subject verse is concerned)

Faith is not so much how much one believes, but what they believe is the truth about Whom the faith is speaking of.

It is not as you said a "matter of opinion of doctrines" stated by you to me in another thread (as to the power behind signs and wonders) but the truth of Whom all things Godly come from.

If one believes things about the foundational doctrines of Christ that are not the truth, at best they will only be of "little faith" no matter how much they believe in Him, or spend time worshipping Him if what they think about Him in regard to He.6:1-2 is not the truth

....... and that you can take to the bank :up:

 

[Arsenios]

Ditto my last . . . beyond that , whatever.

Me too...

Baloney and Cheese it be!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I can see what you're saying, but I think the passage in question is talking about a person's inauguration into the body of Christ, which of course is mystical. The church is a heavenly body on earth, and as such is a witness of the kingdom of God.
The work of regeneration / recreation within is a work of the Holy Spirit, and as a result of this, we become members of the body of Christ. And so there is the literal, experiential, and mystical that must be taken into consideration depending on context.

Paul writes: "As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

He is speaking of an inaugural event...

It happened with him at the hands of Ananias...

Ananias GAVE to Paul the Holy Spirit, upon baptizing him...

The Holy Spirit did not perform the Baptism...

Ananias did...

In obedience to God...

Arsenios

 

[andyc]

Paul writes: "As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

He is speaking of an inaugural event...

It happened with him at the hands of Ananias...

Ananias GAVE to Paul the Holy Spirit, upon baptizing him...

The Holy Spirit did not perform the Baptism...

Ananias did...

In obedience to God...

Arsenios

Aren't you talking about water baptism with Ananias?

It's understandable why people can get confused, because baptism can mean several different things, even physical suffering. This is where context plays an important part.

 

[TFTn5280]

Have you considered why we are no longer under the Levitical Law of Moses according to Paul? The REAL reason? It is not because the Law cannot save us, or make us righteous, or any of those true things with which Paul argued against the Circumcision... Paul carefully explained that it is because the Law only pertains to those who are alive... And we, in that lifeless corpse, that dead Jew hanging from the Cross, are DEAD... And this because we are baptized INTO Christ, and into His Death on that Cross - A long, slow and painful death - THAT is the mark of the witness [martyr] of the Christian Saint...

We need and receive forgiveness, but what is needed, beneath forgiveness for sin, is to DIE to sin... This means to die to the world, (where our feet walk, but where we are now strangers, hidden in
Christ)... If we but confess, God forgives, but we are not yet healed, and we will offend again... It is the healing that the Church disciples, administering the medicines of immortality of repentance through the Holy Mysteries of the Church... It is our infirmities that we need to heal, which is far beyond merely being forgiven... And this is the healing of the soul of man in the discipleship of the Church in obedience to the commands our Lord gave to His Apostles, and indeed gave to Paul, and to all those called to be Apostles...

Gotta run...

Arsenios

Well, yes, actually I have considered these things and could probably have an in depth discussion with you in their regard, but (probably in my own density) I do not know how in bringing them up, that you have addressed my question. I am not arguing IF the saints are forgiven but asking your understanding of WHEN that forgiveness became/becomes effectual.

To be specific about my belief is that the entirety of human salvation was addressed and finished and effectuated in Christ's work leading up to and at the cross, reaching full expression in his resurrection in glorification from the grave, his continual priestly mediation addressing sanctification and not justification, which believers move into (eis) and not in order to activate that truth, be it via baptism or faith or continual obedience as precipitated by repentance or combos of some or all of these or any of them or any other ordo salutis that various Christians/sects offer as solutions to the question of effectual salvation. That aside, it seems we have to begin somewhere and that starting place seems to me to be at my initial question.

Blessings,

 

[Arsenios]

Well, yes, actually I have considered these things and could probably have an in depth discussion with you in their regard, but (probably in my own density) I do not know how in bringing them up, that you have addressed my question. I am not arguing IF the saints are forgiven but asking your understanding of WHEN that forgiveness became/becomes effectual.

To be specific about my belief is that the entirety of human salvation was addressed and finished and effectuated in Christ's work leading up to and at the cross, reaching full expression in his resurrection in glorification from the grave, his continual priestly mediation addressing sanctification and not justification, which believers move into (eis) and not in order to activate that truth, be it via baptism or faith or continual obedience as precipitated by repentance or combos of some or all of these or any of them or any other ordo salutis that various Christians/sects offer as solutions to the question of effectual salvation. That aside, it seems we have to begin somewhere and that starting place seems to me to be at my initial question.

Blessings,

Sorry - I think I have it now... When is forgiveness made effective in Saints? It kinda threw me, because forgiveness is effective as soon as God gives it, but the healing of the infirmity is not addressed in the forgiving... In Saints or in anyone else, for that matter... For instance, we arise from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration not only having given a life confession, having been forgiven all at its end, but then also been given the prayers of exorcism and confessed Christ, we are washed clean of every miniscule trace of any and all sin in our entire being... One is never, in this life, as sparkly clean as when we come forth from those waters, and we are a new person, now being joined hypostatically with the Person of the incarnate, Crucified, Resurrected and Ascended Christ... And in this condition of soul and body, we are then given the Seal of the Holy Spirit, and are filled with Power from on High...

That is what happens when you are baptized into the Orthodox Faith, btw... Jes' sayin'...

So it is HERE that you would think that the Forgiveness you received at your life confession would be effectual, right? But what does Paul say?
"...let us lay aside
every weight,
and the sin which doth so easily beset us,
and let us run with patience
the race that is set before us, "

And this because our Baptism re-creates us as NEW BORN, so that we are babes in need of milk, and not mature in need of the meat of the Faith... The infirmity of our new creation that we are in Christ needs training and exercise and rep's [repetitions] just like anyone doing a strength training program, and wind sprints and all the rest, so as to ENFLESH in ourselves the Faith we have received and been baptized INTO...

In the early Church, a newly baptized person would remain in the Church for 10 days in prayer and fasting following his Baptism, so as to strengthen him (or her) in the newness of their rebirth...

Because the sins which we had but now do not, still have the infirmity of our flesh and souls where they have had their welcome home, and where the soft beds still are warm for them... And they will try to return... And our job then is to keep pure the purity we RECEIVED in our Baptism, as we RUN THE RACE SET BEFORE US... With patience, as the text says, and I will be brash and guess without looking that the word for patience is likely 'long-suffering'...

So when, given this understanding, IS forgiveness made effective?

Would it not be across a lifetime?

Persevering to the end?

So now you know why I tripped on your question...

Arsenios

 

[Levolor]

Sorry - I think I have it now... When is forgiveness made effective in Saints? It kinda threw me, because forgiveness is effective as soon as God gives it, but the healing of the infirmity is not addressed in the forgiving... In Saints or in anyone else, for that matter... For instance, we arise from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration not only having given a life confession, having been forgiven all at its end, but then also been given the prayers of exorcism and confessed Christ, we are washed clean of every miniscule trace of any and all sin in our entire being... One is never, in this life, as sparkly clean as when we come forth from those waters, and we are a new person, now being joined hypostatically with the Person of the incarnate, Crucified, Resurrected and Ascended Christ... And in this condition of soul and body, we are then given the Seal of the Holy Spirit, and are filled with Power from on High...

That is what happens when you are baptized into the Orthodox Faith, btw... Jes' sayin'...

So it is HERE that you would think that the Forgiveness you received at your life confession would be effectual, right? But what does Paul say?
"...let us lay aside
every weight,
and the sin which doth so easily beset us,
and let us run with patience
the race that is set before us, "

And this because our Baptism re-creates us as NEW BORN, so that we are babes in need of milk, and not mature in need of the meat of the Faith... The infirmity of our new creation that we are in Christ needs training and exercise and rep's [repetitions] just like anyone doing a strength training program, and wind sprints and all the rest, so as to ENFLESH in ourselves the Faith we have received and been baptized INTO...

In the early Church, a newly baptized person would remain in the Church for 10 days in prayer and fasting following his Baptism, so as to strengthen him (or her) in the newness of their rebirth...

Because the sins which we had but now do not, still have the infirmity of our flesh and souls where they have had their welcome home, and where the soft beds still are warm for them... And they will try to return... And our job then is to keep pure the purity we RECEIVED in our Baptism, as we RUN THE RACE SET BEFORE US... With patience, as the text says, and I will be brash and guess without looking that the word for patience is likely 'long-suffering'...

So when, given this understanding, IS forgiveness made effective?

Would it not be across a lifetime?

Persevering to the end?

So now you know why I tripped on your question...

Arsenios

Forgive my brevity here as I am in a bit of a time restraint right now. Due to that I haven't read your and T's posts about this, and so don't know if you have said what you said once about healing.

That was, (paraphrased): "Healing is immediate upon repentance. The manifestation of that healing however depends on how well one's walk is with the Holy Spirit after that repentance".

You no doubt will recall what you said better than I.

Just thought it relevant.

God bless the both of you!

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Sorry - I think I have it now... When is forgiveness made effective in Saints? It kinda threw me, because forgiveness is effective as soon as God gives it, but the healing of the infirmity is not addressed in the forgiving... In Saints or in anyone else, for that matter... For instance, we arise from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration not only having given a life confession, having been forgiven all at its end, but then also been given the prayers of exorcism and confessed Christ, we are washed clean of every miniscule trace of any and all sin in our entire being... One is never, in this life, as sparkly clean as when we come forth from those waters, and we are a new person, now being joined hypostatically with the Person of the incarnate, Crucified, Resurrected and Ascended Christ... And in this condition of soul and body, we are then given the Seal of the Holy Spirit, and are filled with Power from on High...

That is what happens when you are baptized into the Orthodox Faith, btw... Jes' sayin'...

So it is HERE that you would think that the Forgiveness you received at your life confession would be effectual, right? But what does Paul say?
"...let us lay aside
every weight,
and the sin which doth so easily beset us,
and let us run with patience
the race that is set before us, "

And this because our Baptism re-creates us as NEW BORN, so that we are babes in need of milk, and not mature in need of the meat of the Faith... The infirmity of our new creation that we are in Christ needs training and exercise and rep's [repetitions] just like anyone doing a strength training program, and wind sprints and all the rest, so as to ENFLESH in ourselves the Faith we have received and been baptized INTO...

In the early Church, a newly baptized person would remain in the Church for 10 days in prayer and fasting following his Baptism, so as to strengthen him (or her) in the newness of their rebirth...

Because the sins which we had but now do not, still have the infirmity of our flesh and souls where they have had their welcome home, and where the soft beds still are warm for them... And they will try to return... And our job then is to keep pure the purity we RECEIVED in our Baptism, as we RUN THE RACE SET BEFORE US... With patience, as the text says, and I will be brash and guess without looking that the word for patience is likely 'long-suffering'...

So when, given this understanding, IS forgiveness made effective?

Would it not be across a lifetime?

Persevering to the end?

So now you know why I tripped on your question...

Arsenios

Very well said! Especially the bolded/underlined.

That's ontology.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You are such a bright splash!

So Scripture tells us that we are baptized into Christ, and indeed into His Death on the Cross, yes? That is what Paul tells us... And he tells us that as many as habe been baptized INTO Christ, have PUT ON Christ...

Now many here, under the influence of the Protestant Western Tradition, believe that there is such a thing as a "Spirit Baptism" that is actually Baptism into Christ, and that any baptism in water may be nice and pious but is NOT a Spirit Baptism... I think this is a fairly standard formulation for a fairly common belief held here by many... And many hold that baptism is BY the Holy Spirit, and INTO the Holy Spirit, and that this bestows Power, as it did at Pentecost, so that Baptism by the Spirit is a bestowal of the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Yet Paul tells us we are baptized into Christ, and NOT into the Holyu Spirit... And Acts 10 tells us that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his party, and that THEN Peter had them baptized... And we know that they were baptized into Christ because that is what Paul tells us that baptism does for the one being baptized... The text in Acts 10 does NOT SAY that the Holy Spirit baptized Cornelius or anyone else... It plainly tells us that Peter did the Baptism, and this BECAUSE the Gentiles were GIVEN the Holy Spirit just like the Jews had been given the Holy Spirit...

And we know that Paul was himself baptized by Ananias and was given the Holy Spirit by him...

So the idea of a Spirit Baptism is not attested by Scripture... All the baptisms mentioned in Scripture were done by men in the flesh... And nowhere in Scripture do we find words saying that the Holy Spirit DOES any baptizing at all...

And just as the Jews escaping Pharoah crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land, but the demon-enraged hordes of Pharoah and his army were drowned in the waters through which the Israelites had just passed through, so also, when we are baptized into Christ, who Himself was baptized by John's hands in the boundary waters of the Promised Land, Jordan River, so also are we baptized in water that our demonic hordes of sins are washed away, and we escape their pursuit of us, and enter into the Promised Land which is fulfilled by Christ, which is the Body of Christ...

The Living Body of Christ IS the Promise Land, the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ Himself, upon this earth, and the boundary of that Heavenly Kingdom where Christ is King, is Baptism into Christ, and THEN the anointing with the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

Amen and amen.

 

[Arsenios]

Forgive my brevity here as I am in a bit of a time restraint right now. Due to that I haven't read your and T's posts about this, and so don't know if you have said what you said once about healing.

That was, (paraphrased): "Healing is immediate upon repentance. The manifestation of that healing however depends on how well one's walk is with the Holy Spirit after that repentance".

You no doubt will recall what you said better than I.

Just thought it relevant.

God bless the both of you!

I hope I said that forgiveness is immediate upon confession seeking forgiveness... But that we need more than forgiveness, we need repentance, and if we give repentance for our sin confessed, then God, in His Good Time, will give to us the healing of our infirmity [our weakness, our sickness] which was the cause of the sin...

Heard a story of a desert father who had some young monks asking about rooting out sin, and how they thought they could do it... So he asked one to pull up a tiny weed just sprouted, and he did, and it came easily... And he went to the next, and he pulled up a small established weed, and it came out with a tug... And the next a larger one, and larger and larger, until one monk could not get the large bush pulled out... And he explained that when sins get this strong and entrenched, then you need your brothers to help you pull it up, and they together did so... And he said this is why we pray for one another...

When one confesses a sin, and repents from doing it again, and, if the sin was large, he does penance by obedience to the confesser, then God gives healing to the infirmity that caused the sin...

Asking for such healing is a good thing...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Aren't you talking about water baptism with Ananias?

Yes, it is the Baptism with which Christ was Himself baptized by the Forerunner John in water... If you follow Christ, you are baptized into Christ in water as Christ Himself was baptized...

Arsenios

 

[Krsto]

You are such a bright splash!

So Scripture tells us that we are baptized into Christ, and indeed into His Death on the Cross, yes? That is what Paul tells us... And he tells us that as many as habe been baptized INTO Christ, have PUT ON Christ...

Now many here, under the influence of the Protestant Western Tradition, believe that there is such a thing as a "Spirit Baptism" that is actually Baptism into Christ, and that any baptism in water may be nice and pious but is NOT a Spirit Baptism... I think this is a fairly standard formulation for a fairly common belief held here by many... And many hold that baptism is BY the Holy Spirit, and INTO the Holy Spirit, and that this bestows Power, as it did at Pentecost, so that Baptism by the Spirit is a bestowal of the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Yet Paul tells us we are baptized into Christ, and NOT into the Holyu Spirit... And Acts 10 tells us that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his party, and that THEN Peter had them baptized... And we know that they were baptized into Christ because that is what Paul tells us that baptism does for the one being baptized... The text in Acts 10 does NOT SAY that the Holy Spirit baptized Cornelius or anyone else... It plainly tells us that Peter did the Baptism, and this BECAUSE the Gentiles were GIVEN the Holy Spirit just like the Jews had been given the Holy Spirit...

And we know that Paul was himself baptized by Ananias and was given the Holy Spirit by him...

So the idea of a Spirit Baptism is not attested by Scripture... All the baptisms mentioned in Scripture were done by men in the flesh... And nowhere in Scripture do we find words saying that the Holy Spirit DOES any baptizing at all...

And just as the Jews escaping Pharoah crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land, but the demon-enraged hordes of Pharoah and his army were drowned in the waters through which the Israelites had just passed through, so also, when we are baptized into Christ, who Himself was baptized by John's hands in the boundary waters of the Promised Land, Jordan River, so also are we baptized in water that our demonic hordes of sins are washed away, and we escape their pursuit of us, and enter into the Promised Land which is fulfilled by Christ, which is the Body of Christ...

The Living Body of Christ IS the Promise Land, the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ Himself, upon this earth, and the boundary of that Heavenly Kingdom where Christ is King, is Baptism into Christ, and THEN the anointing with the Power of the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

You're right - the Holy Spirit doesn't baptize anyone. Jesus does it, as per Jn. 1:33 - "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." But we don't teach that the Holy Spirit baptizes. We teach that people are baptized in the Holy Spirit. By Jesus. As for Pentecostals, we also don't teach that baptism into Christ or baptism into his body is baptism in the Holy Spirit. We teach that it is simply a work of the Spirit. As 1 Cor. 12:13 says: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

 

[Krsto]

And it also has nothing to do with the "coming upon" of the Holy Spirit.


You RCC boys need to lay aside your missals, RCC commentaries and handouts and get with the elementary teaching of the gospels ___ from the gospels.

I never implied that it was, and I'm not RCC. Far from it.

 

[Krsto]

Jesus is the rock.

Peter was/is a stone.

1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,


LA

True but the issue is if Peter was even that. I say he was. Catholics say he was. Protestants don't. I think he was but in a different way than how the RCC believes. It's all right there in Acts 2 and following. Peter was not the pope. He was just a formerly weak vessel that denied the Lord and after he was "converted" and filled with the Holy Spirit and power he was the stone on which Jesus built his church.

 

[Krsto]

And you refuse to take off you spiritual earmuffs and eyeglasses with blacked out lenses.

That was a very informative response. Did you have anything more to add?

 

[Cross Reference]

That was a very informative response. Did you have anything more to add?

No. That should be sufficient. For the wise, it is.

 

[Cross Reference]

True but the issue is if Peter was even that. I say he was. Catholics say he was. Protestants don't. I think he was but in a different way than how the RCC believes. It's all right there in Acts 2 and following. Peter was not the pope. He was just a formerly weak vessel that denied the Lord and after he was "converted" and filled with the Holy Spirit and power he was the stone on which Jesus built his church.

Why should it haved switched from being what he declared to who he was? Why the need?

 

[chrysostom]

True but the issue is if Peter was even that. I say he was. Catholics say he was. Protestants don't. I think he was but in a different way than how the RCC believes. It's all right there in Acts 2 and following. Peter was not the pope. He was just a formerly weak vessel that denied the Lord and after he was "converted" and filled with the Holy Spirit and power he was the stone on which Jesus built his church.

why did Jesus ask peter to feed His sheep?

three times

 

[Cross Reference]

why did Jesus ask peter to feed His sheep?

three times

Have ever asked that question of yourself? What did your self come up with for an answer?