If you deny that Adam's sin resulted in your condemnation how can you receive justification through Christ's one act of obedience?
Theology Club: Predestination and freedom
- Thread starter Totton Linnet
- Start date
ALL men I have repeated it again and again
It is God who says you were predestined and chosen before the world began to be for the praise of His glorious grace...how then can you say it was YOUR will?
The scriptures just bounce off you
The scriptures just bounce off you
Dialogos
Well-known member
And consequently those who bear fruit do so because they were “appointed” to bear fruit and not only that the fruit would arrive but that it would “remain” (John 15:16)
So the question is who does God choose and when does He choose them?
That’s not the kind of choosing John is talking about, is it? Everyone, to one extent or another, is an image bearer of God, that does not mean that they will bear fruit that will remain, does it?Lee said:
John is talking about the kind of choosing where God chooses us to bear fruit that will remain. Let’s keep focused on what we mean when we say “God chooses.” God chooses all sorts of people for all sorts of things in all sorts of ways, but in John 15 Jesus is talking about choosing his disciples to abide in Him.
“All” is a word that needs to be contextually defined. All does not always mean every single one in the world. When I say I am going to pick up all of the kids from the school for youth group I don’t mean I am picking up every child in the world, nor do I even mean that I am picking up every child in the school, I mean I am picking up every child in the school who is going to youth group at our church that night.Lee said:
That’s not changing the meaning of a word, it’s just moving from defining a word in general to allowing a word to be defined in context. Arminians refuse to let “all” be defined in contextually and we will see that in your example from 2 Peter.
As opposed to the predestination of every single person who has ever lived? Yes. But for all your education in Calvinism, you still haven’t correctly articulated the doctrine of election properly.Lee said:
That’s a fine assertion but it isn’t biblical. The bible says that the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. They aren’t able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (see 1 Cor 2:14)Lee said:
A spiritually neutral human (can you say Pelagius) might have been able to choose God, but a spiritually dead human cannot and does not apart from the intervention of God by His Spirit.
Of course there are. Here are just a few.Lee said:
Ephesians 2:1-3, John 6:44, Romans 3:1-23 and 2 Cor 4:3-4.
I see you think that Psalms are only quasi-inspired? Not really God’s word? If they aren’t the word of the Lord then whose words are they? Do you believe that the psalms are true Lee. When David says, “For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call on you.” Psalm 86:5Lee said:
Do you think that this is somehow less true because it’s a song lyric?
Furthermore, what is the point Paul is trying to make from stringing those OT scripture together?
I think it is pretty clear, Paul is saying that all have sinned, they do not fear God and do not seek God.
So you tell me. How does the fact that they are song lyrics negate the content and meaning of those verses? How do you get from those verses that men do fear God on their own and they do seek God on their own.
I see so heaven is populated by two groups. One group who stand before God clothed sufficiently in their own righteousness and the rest of us who are sinners who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Right?Lee said:
Wrong.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:23-24 ESV) |
Right, the invention of Wesley’s mind that keeps Wesley from being a heretic. Where in scripture can we see this Lee?Lee said:
Really because I am pretty sure that millions of people lived and died never having even heard of Jesus or the foot of the cross, so you prove to me how God has drawn ALL humans to the foot of the cross. Scripture please. Tell me please what verse proves that the Native American man who died twenty two minutes after Jesus died was somehow drawn, by the Holy Spirit, to the foot of the cross.Lee said:
Here is where your consistency is about to fall apart. Why would someone who can choose Christ entirely without the aid of the Holy Spirit need the Holy Spirit after they come to Christ (on their own) in order to live the rest of their lives? Isn’t someone who is spiritually alive enough to come to Christ without the Holy Spirit spiritually alive enough to live a life pleasing to God without the Spirit’s aid?Lee said:
Which is it, greater or lesser.Lee said:
Clearly you don’t’ believe in eternal security.Lee said:
1 Cor 2:14.Lee said:
So that’s what you are, Eastern Orthodox?Lee said:
I realize Augustine was familiar with platonic thought. I’m not a monergist because of Autustine, I’m a monergist because of scripture.
Two thoughts. First, whether or not God is able to present the salvation message to ALL is conditioned by the reality that God has not presented his salvation message to all. Millions have died never hearing the gospel and there are STILL people who haven’t heard the gospel.Lee said:
Second, there is’t a Calvinist I know who has ever denied that whosoever believes in Him will never perish so I’m afraid your comments here don’t hit their mark.
Now, regarding predestination you said:
Not really, God predestined them before the foundations of the world. You tell me, which happened first, God’s predestination or their being faithful?Lee said:
Calvinists don’t deny that people choose, we deny that people have the power to do so apart from the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.Lee said:
Scripture please. I’d like the reference that backs up this assertion.Lee said:
I think God is big enough to be the One who does the choosing.Lee said:
Lets take that assumption and square it against scripture.Lee said:
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 ESV) |
Do you think that God justified and glorified all of humanity?
I see, so all things being united in Him means that all, Satan, the fallen angels, all unbelievers, God haters and idolaters will be united in Him, right?Lee said:
No?
I think you need to rethink the way you are interpreting that passage friend.
God united all things in Him. All who are in Him are united together, but not all are in Him. And the scripture is clear that we can’t find ourselves in Him without faith in Him and the scriptures are also abundantly clear that we, being dead in our trespasses and sins, cannot have faith without the rescuing regeneration of the Holy Spirit. For if the Holy Spirit does not open our blind eyes, we all would have continued to maintain the message of the cross was foolishness.
Sure, let’s just look at the “all’s” and “any’s” in context.Lee said:
The answer is in the text you quoted, you just don’t see it because your eyes are too conditioned by your traditions. The Lord is not slow in fulfilling his promises but is patent toward who?
Who?
patient toward you…
Who is the “you” in 2 Peter 3:9?
Is Peter writing to all of mankind?
No, he is writing to the beloved (verse 8). Arminians badly abuse this passage by ignoring the context of the audience. Peter isn’t writing to all of humanity, he is writing to God’s beloved. God’s patience is displayed toward his beloved, the elect, (the “you” of verse 9).
But let me ask you this if that answer isn’t satisfactory to you.
If you think that God’s patience described in 2 Peter 3 is set toward all of humanity and that God is not willing that any human being perish, then why do some perish?
Why won’t God just wait long enough for every human to repent? Peter said that purpose of God’s patience was to bring repentance, right? Why then would God ever allow anyone’s life to end before they believed? Why would God ever let His son return to a world populated by unbelievers? All of these will perish, will they not? Your use of the verse is actually self-defeating. You say God’s patience towards the objects of his patience is insufficient. God just didn’t wait long enough for all of humanity to repent. In contrast to the actual verse, you think God is absolutely willing to let the “any” perish.
It seems to me the one who needs to look at the definitions of the “all”s and “any”s in that passage, is you. Because, as it stands, you don’t really believe that God is patient toward “all” (as you define it) because there are some who will find the end of God’s patience and will die in their sins, and you don’t really believe that God isn’t willing that “any” (as you define it) should perish because you know that many will.
I don’t, I see that God is referring to the beloved (verse 8), the elect, and God is patient toward ALL the elect, He will not end their lives or the world before every single one of them lives in repentance and I am quite certain He is not willing that any of his beloved perish.
Looking forward to your response.
God’s blessings be with you.
Dialogos
Maybe you should learn to read and comprehend the meanings of words.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Translation: "I am too lazy and unqualified to present decent answer to this comprehensive post by Dialogos."
FAIL
Dialogos didn't post anything comprehensive, for one. For two he was responding to a post I made about a year or so ago, I think. And third, he was wrong, as my post is in plain English and is held to be true by all but hardcore Calvinists. Dialogos doesn't understand the meaning of the word "directly." And fourth, the verse he posted doesn't contradict my statement in the least.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Is this your excuse(s)?
:crackup:
Dialogos runs exegetical circles around you . . .
:ha:
He posted one word and a single Bible verse.
Now, if you think that Bible verse proves me wrong then show how it does, because he didn't even try.
Dialogos,
Thanks for your response. I will reply to each as we go through the day, as I have time. I will make one remark here concerning the Psalms and your position. You talk about context in the preceding areas and then want to take the Psalms out of context of who wrote them and why. Some were songs of joy, some were songs of great travail. Some are merely songs or poems. Were they God inspired, some yes, some no. Were they included in canon of Scripture, absolutely. If I were to take single verses out of the Bible, songs, poems or parables, I would NOT base my theology on one alone.
Blessings,
Lee
One can predestine without individually choosing who will be included in the final result.
For example:
The serpent on the pole was lifted up to heal those bitten by serpents.
(Numbers 21:8-9)
It was predestined that whosoever looked upon it would be healed, but it was not predestined which individuals would do so.
For example:
The serpent on the pole was lifted up to heal those bitten by serpents.
(Numbers 21:8-9)
It was predestined that whosoever looked upon it would be healed, but it was not predestined which individuals would do so.
I agree!
:thumb:
I have already provided John 15 in context, and addressed the words of Jesus, "IF" and "ABIDE" and "KEEP". You choose to ignore them and go on with your eisegesis of Scripture to fit your doctrine. Now, another question: Do you always get what you ask for from God in Jesus' Name? Do you love me in Christ Jesus as a brother even though I am Wesleyan and Holiness in doctrine instead of Reformed?
Okay, let's take a look at your "appointed" to bear fruit in John 15, in context:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Why is it that I do not feel the love from so many on this forum? In Wesleyan doctrine cogregations, I feel the love. I see the love in action. Most, not all, are loving, accepting, and forgiving, more so than most Reformed doctrine churches I have been in. It has been my experience that Reformed like to focus on other people's sins and sinfulness instead of the love of God in His sending His only begotten Son, Jesus to reconcile whoever will believe to Himself. My experience in Wesleyanism, and my goal for me, is to love with a pure love, a holy love, a non-judging love from God, to all as Jesus did.
Jesus knew the sins of all whom He encountered. He lovingly spoke to them about their situation and did not condemn them as the Pharisees did. In Reformed churches, I see Pharisees, not Jesus. Why is that?
Now on to each of your other points that need to be addressed, one at a time, so as to now overwhelm in one long, wordy post in which to get lost or confused. I am old, confusion is not something I want to entertain.
Blessings,
Lee
Yes, everyone is made in God's image, though TL denies that. She said that after Adam's sin, all humans bear inbred sin from Adam and are now created in Adam's image. I cannot find a Scripture that supports her "created in Adam's image" in the Bible and she will not provide one.
Ah, so He is not talking about choosing everyone to abide in Him? He is not talking about choosing only His ELECT to abide in Him?
In any case, back to you and your post: Yes, let's look back at John 15 in context, yet again...there are those 3 words I hi-lited again: IF, ABIDE, KEEP. Stumbling blocks for Reformed doctrine Christians that are OSAS believers, because "If you abide in me, If you keep my commandments" requires an active participation on the part of the believer in Christ. We must actively continue to believe in Christ Jesus to ABIDE in Him. They are Jesus' words, not Paul's. When Jesus and Paul disagree, I take Jesus at His words, because He is the One who saved me, not Paul. Paul was a Pharisee originally. He presents the Gospel of Jesus, not the Gospel of Paul. But he does so with some Pharisaic lenses at times. One can see the transition in Paul's letters from his first to his last. He became less Pharisaic in his letters as he matured in Christ Jesus. Kind of like we are all supposed to do as we cooperate with Holy Spirit in His work of sanctification of believers.......
What IF one chooses to not ABIDE in Him? What IF one chooses to not KEEP His commandments? What IF one who is in Him chooses to not bear good fruit?
Oh, that's right, I forgot, (old age), Jesus is ONLY talking about choosing His 12 Disciples in John 15......so John 15 by your stated doctrine does not apply to all people or even all of His ELECT, ONLY His 12 original Disciples.
I am so glad we got that cleared up.
Blessings,
Lee
Yes, let's look back to the Greek for John 3 for a moment: Forgive me, I am on my work computer and do not have Greek letters installed as I do at home. I will have to type them in English letters.
John 3:15 word-for-word: "pas ho pisteuOn eis auton mE apolEtai all echE zOEn aiOnion" that every-the-one-believing into Him no should be destroyed but may-be-having life "eternal". Nothing about only all of the elect here.
John 3:16 uses the same wording "every-the-one-believing into Him" No restriction to just "every-the-one-believing-elect". That is not how it is written in Greek. pas in this use is everyone, with no restriction to everyone of a group which would have an accent over the a in pas.
Now, let's look at the Greek for Romans 5 "all": (Longer context, this is going to take time, and I may get interupted with work).
Romans 5:12; "dia touto hOsper di henos anthrOpou hE hamartia eis ton kosmon eisElthen kai tia tEs hamartias ho thanatos kai houtOs eis pantas anthrOpous ho thanatos diElthen eph hO pantes hEmarton"
Word-for-word:
because of this even as through one human the missing into the world entered and through the missing the death and thus into all humans the death through came on which all missed.
Please take note of the Greek word used for "ALL" here: pantas for all humans in which death came and pantes for all humans that missed (sin). In this case it is every and all manner of humans. Again, it is not specific use of pas with an accent over the a to restrict it to all of a specific group as you would like it to say.
Blessings,
Lee
Then, please, correctly articulate Calvinism for us all. Here is your open door, please step in.
Blessings,
Lee
Pelagius you say? How much of Pelagius' works are preserved today? Did not the RCC burn most of his works? Now, most of Pelagius' work that is known is known only from those who opposed him. It is dedacted like an NSA document, what little of it that is left. You do realize that upon further examination, absent Augustine of Hippo to oppose that examination, Pelagius' work is now looked at as quite possibly orthodox in nature and Augustine was perhaps mistaken in his opposition to Pelagius? Did you know this?
Ah yes, shall we look at what Paul was saying in context? To do so, one must look at all of Chapter 2 and all of Chapter 3. (sorry people, you all know I am allergic to posting extra long posts for the sake of clarity and lack of confusion). So, I will conclude this post and post 1 Corinthians 2 and 3 in my next post, by itself.
Blessings,
Lee
1 Corinthians 2 ESV:
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3 ESV:
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?
What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
One can see from reading the letter in context that Paul was talking to already born-again Christian, yet, immature Christians spiritually. And so, he said that mature Christians understood spiritual things, but those to whom he was speaking in this letter were immature in the Holy Spirit and therefore, he must speak to them in the flesh, because they could not discern Spiritual matters. These were already born-again Christians!
Enter prevenient grace from God, justifying grace from God, sanctifying grace from God, working hand-in-hand to bring unbelievers, the unsaved, to Christ Jesus to reconcile them and assist them in growing in the Spirit of God. No limitation on whom, just whoever will believe.
Nice try though!
Context of Paul's letters is as important as context of to whom Jesus was choosing, it appears.
Blessings,
Lee
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3 ESV:
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?
What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
One can see from reading the letter in context that Paul was talking to already born-again Christian, yet, immature Christians spiritually. And so, he said that mature Christians understood spiritual things, but those to whom he was speaking in this letter were immature in the Holy Spirit and therefore, he must speak to them in the flesh, because they could not discern Spiritual matters. These were already born-again Christians!
Enter prevenient grace from God, justifying grace from God, sanctifying grace from God, working hand-in-hand to bring unbelievers, the unsaved, to Christ Jesus to reconcile them and assist them in growing in the Spirit of God. No limitation on whom, just whoever will believe.
Nice try though!
Context of Paul's letters is as important as context of to whom Jesus was choosing, it appears.
Blessings,
Lee