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Theology Club: Predestination and freedom
- Thread starter Totton Linnet
- Start date
TL,
I read and re-read your last post. Neither time did it present a clear, concise, rational message. Is English not your primary language?
You have misunderstood what I and CR and Iwannaknow have said about remaining in Christ Jesus by the doing of good works. Nobody can "LOSE" their salvation as the Reformed folks keep accusing us of saying.
Again, NOBODY CAN LOSE SALVATION. I hope the capital letters make that clear. We are not saying anything of the kind.
What we are saying is that people who become Christians, by choice, which is NOT a work of humans, it is merely a choice, the most important choice anyone can make, can also make a choice to abandon that faith in Jesus.
God is still the God that extended the grace to us.
Jesus is still the Son of God, the Word made flesh, to sacrifice Himself on our behalf to reconcile us to God the Father. Jesus, as fully human-fully God, died and through that defeated Satan's power over humanity and corruptibility of humanity and spiritual death of humanity.
The Holy Spirit is still the power by which we are brought to Christ Jesus to be able to make our choice to accept or reject reconciliation to God.
Satan, not God, is the author of sin. Satan brought sin to humanity. Adam and Eve gave in to that sin and thereby gave Satan the power of corruptibility and death over humanity. However, Adam's sin and Eve's sin are theirs alone. We did not inherit their sin, as Reformed doctrine teaches. Each of us is condemned for our own sins, not anyone elses. Those sins, like salvation in Christ, are choices we make as reasoning beings, created by God with free will choices.
Now, please, if and when you respond, please try to carry on a clear conversation, without all of the confused, jumbled muriad of thoughts and disjointed tangents.
Blessings,
Lee
I read and re-read your last post. Neither time did it present a clear, concise, rational message. Is English not your primary language?
You have misunderstood what I and CR and Iwannaknow have said about remaining in Christ Jesus by the doing of good works. Nobody can "LOSE" their salvation as the Reformed folks keep accusing us of saying.
Again, NOBODY CAN LOSE SALVATION. I hope the capital letters make that clear. We are not saying anything of the kind.
What we are saying is that people who become Christians, by choice, which is NOT a work of humans, it is merely a choice, the most important choice anyone can make, can also make a choice to abandon that faith in Jesus.
God is still the God that extended the grace to us.
Jesus is still the Son of God, the Word made flesh, to sacrifice Himself on our behalf to reconcile us to God the Father. Jesus, as fully human-fully God, died and through that defeated Satan's power over humanity and corruptibility of humanity and spiritual death of humanity.
The Holy Spirit is still the power by which we are brought to Christ Jesus to be able to make our choice to accept or reject reconciliation to God.
Satan, not God, is the author of sin. Satan brought sin to humanity. Adam and Eve gave in to that sin and thereby gave Satan the power of corruptibility and death over humanity. However, Adam's sin and Eve's sin are theirs alone. We did not inherit their sin, as Reformed doctrine teaches. Each of us is condemned for our own sins, not anyone elses. Those sins, like salvation in Christ, are choices we make as reasoning beings, created by God with free will choices.
Now, please, if and when you respond, please try to carry on a clear conversation, without all of the confused, jumbled muriad of thoughts and disjointed tangents.
Blessings,
Lee
I don't doubt that many of those who "choose of their own freewill" to become christian subsequently "choose of their own freewill" to become unchristian again...that is why I contend with you with such dogmatism. I doesn't BELIEVE in this freewill salvation...why?
Because the bible knows nothing about it.
That's where the mess IS in the church, that's why folk foul up and bring disgrace and heartache to themselves and to everybody else. They are invited to the front and led to mumble a prayer and counselled that they are now saved...even though no work has been done in them by the Holy Ghost, no forgiveness of sin has taken place, no new birth, they are not made new creatures in Christ Jesus.
They came to the front but they never came to Jesus.
And I am not saying nobody gets saved in the altar call many do and many do not but ALL are counselled that they have mumbled the right prayer therefore they must believe, believe, believe...even though no saving work took place.
These are the ones who "choose" to be saved. I wot well you do not understand, this is a different lingo to yours. This my ol' mucker is the language of the reformation.
For the first 350 years of the reformation there was no such an institution as the altar call...there was no nicely formulated sinner's prayer to mumble...I am not saying nobody cried out in an agony of soul to the Lord to save them or whispered their first breathings of love to the Lord and earnestly desired that He might come take up His abode with them. But that was the direct result of the convincing, convicting , IRresistable power of the Holy Ghost working upon them as a result of the faithful preaching of the gospel.
The like has long since passed from the church...but God is gracious, God is merciful and kind, He will have a people.
This thing is all according to the gospel message which is preached, whether it be the gospel of the reformation or the more modern freewill gospel of Arminianism. What I am contending for is a thourough going work to be done in the heart, a soul cleansing work, a transforming work where the one who is the subject of it is thouroughly saved, thouroughly born again and thouroughly changed...a new creation.
This christian does NOT subsequently "choose" to become unsaved, unchristian again as soon as the novelty and excitement of the "hour of decision" is over WHY? because the work was wholly done by the Holy Spirit, and it was a work done in eternity, they didn't join the church they recieved everlasting life.
I also acknowledge that many of those who "choose" to become christians do at a later time come into a more steadfast and real experience of the Holy Spirit.
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And don't tell me that you didn't understand that it is nonsense to say that God chose the apostles and ordained them that they might bear much fruit but that He expects that we will choose ourselves and ordain ourselves if we are to bear any fruit at all. You understood it but you didn't like it.
Incidently these are only the opening skirmishes of a subject which is HUGE both in it's impact on the church and it's impact on the individual christian.
And I contest that it is THIS matter which has resulted in the present condition of the church today. It is the THROWING OUT by the church of the precious doctrines of predestination and election and God's sovereignty and the gospel of free grace.
You can't throw doctrines out of the bible not without consequences.
Incidently these are only the opening skirmishes of a subject which is HUGE both in it's impact on the church and it's impact on the individual christian.
And I contest that it is THIS matter which has resulted in the present condition of the church today. It is the THROWING OUT by the church of the precious doctrines of predestination and election and God's sovereignty and the gospel of free grace.
You can't throw doctrines out of the bible not without consequences.
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And again you fail at quote formatting in your posts, Totty.
Yes, but the part they don't believe Lee is that one can choose not to return to the Lord after they've already been enlightened by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Which Hebrews 6 and John 15 along with others indicate that those IN HIM that stop or don't bear fruit are cut off and burned. This is where then they fall short of understanding the function of grace and faith as they both work together to bring about a state of Electiveness in a believer. They can and do fall from this. Grace does sustain them for a time, then after a period of time...when God knows they won't return...John 15 they are cut off and burned.
They refuse to accept this truth...
I do believe that there is a difference between someone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit and someone who is simply turned over to a reprobate mind because of their apostasy and complacency. Both are damned, but not necessarily the same reasons.
YOU say they are damned, neither Hebrews or John say they are damned...that there is sin unto death I don't doubt but there is no damnation.
Paul teaches in Corinthians concerning partaking the bread and wine unworthily, not discerning the body and blood of the Lord "for this cause many are weak and sickly among you and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves we should not be judged.
But when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord that we should not be condemned with the world...
When we are saved we are made one spirit with the Lord...it is as impossible for us to be damned as it is for Him to be damned.
If we remain in Him.....
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full."John 15:1-11 ESV
There are many "IF"s in Jesus' words. There is much guidance to "abide in" Him, "abide" in His love. Those are choices, they are IFs based upon choices, human choices. He was speaking directly to His 12 Disciples, and that also applies as much to us as it did to them, or are we better, higher than them in Jesus' "pecking order"?
Blessings,
Lee
a·bide
/əˈbīd/
Verb
1.Accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation): "I would abide by their decision".
Retrieved from: Dictionary.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Definition of ABIDE
transitive verb
1: to wait for : await
2a : to endure without yielding : withstand
b : to bear patiently : tolerate <cannot abide such bigots>
3: to accept without objection <will abide your decision>
intransitive verb
1: to remain stable or fixed in a state
2: to continue in a place : sojourn
— abid·er noun
— abide by
1: to conform to <abide by the rules>
2: to acquiesce in <will abide by your decision>
Retrieved from: "Abide." Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 26 Aug. 2013. <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abide>.
Abiding in is an active verb. One must take action from making a decision to abide in.
/əˈbīd/
Verb
1.Accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation): "I would abide by their decision".
Retrieved from: Dictionary.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Definition of ABIDE
transitive verb
1: to wait for : await
2a : to endure without yielding : withstand
b : to bear patiently : tolerate <cannot abide such bigots>
3: to accept without objection <will abide your decision>
intransitive verb
1: to remain stable or fixed in a state
2: to continue in a place : sojourn
— abid·er noun
— abide by
1: to conform to <abide by the rules>
2: to acquiesce in <will abide by your decision>
Retrieved from: "Abide." Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 26 Aug. 2013. <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abide>.
Abiding in is an active verb. One must take action from making a decision to abide in.
Dialogos
Well-known member
Dialogos
Well-known member
Lee, if you keep reading, you will find that Jesus not only said that abiding in Christ was a condition for bearing fruit, He also said that they were "appointed" that they would bear fruit.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. (John 15:16 ESV)
As I said, He was talking specifically to His 12 Disciples at that time. He chose them as He walked by them and up to them. And, if you say that God originally chose all humanity to send Jesus to for salvation, I will agree with you, because, just as His disciples had a choice to remain and abide in him, so do ALL who will believe.
God is not a small Napoleonic god. He is big and His sovereignty is not threatened one iota by His giving humanity a choice to accept or reject His loving grace. In fact, He would love for all of His created humanity to choose Him. How much simpler could He make it?
If you believe Plato, Augustine, and Calvin, God could have predestined ALL of humanity to be saved, but He is glorified by His sovereign will to predestine some to salvation and more to Hell, which some have said, "No, that is double predestination". In fact, if God chooses some and fails to choose others, it is IN FACT double predestination, some to Heaven and some to Hell. All to bring more glory and honor and praise to Himself???????? Pulllllleeeeeasse?! You can really buy into that?
Blessings,
Lee
Dialogos
Well-known member
Jesus has been specifically talking to His 12 disciples since the beginning of John 15, how does this make it irrelevant to us?
Which does not preclude that Jesus can choose us in more remote ways.Lee said:
I don't say that because its not biblical.Lee said:
Sure, there is always a choice involved. I'm not sure how folks on this site got the impression that calvinists believe that there is no choice involved, that's a caricature of calvinism, not what calvinists actually advocate.Lee said:
Whether or not God is threatened by human choice isn't really the issue. Of course God isn't threatened by human choice. Mankind, by choice, rejects God. God isn’t threatened by that. What we calvinists realize is that mankind, in our sinfulness, doesn't choose to accept His loving grace apart from the regeneration of our spirits.Lee said:
Paul isn't joking when he says that "none seek for God (Romans 3:11)."
Apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, we still make choices, we just keep choosing to reject Christ. The cross really is foolishness to those who are perishing.
Yet He knows that, because of our depravity, we won't. That's why regeneration is necessary. The walking dead can't regenerate themselves by wishing they were alive.Lee said:
So many misconceptions.....Lee said:
First, Plato has nothing to do with the biblical doctrine of predestination. If Plato had never been born, Ephesians 1:1-5 would still be true. Second, I do believe Augustine (over Pelagius) and Calvin (over Arminius) but essentially I believe the bible rather than the traditions of men. Who cares if Augustine or Calvin believed it, the real issue is whether or not the bible teaches it.
Third, mankind has universally chosen hell over heaven, God has chosen to turn some away from that destination. God doesn’t have to choose some to go to hell, everyone, in sinful depravity, already chose hell. God chooses to save some from that choice. You don’t have to like God’s plan of redemption in order to see that it is true, and I am pretty sure God doesn’t care whether you like it or not.
Thanks for the dialog.
Dialogos
Exactly, it doesn't. It makes it relevant to us ALL.
Actually, God chose us ALL when He came up with the idea of creating us in His image. That some choose to go against God, like Satan and a third of the angels in Heaven does not diminish that God chose each of us and then made it ever so easy to be reconciled to Him, IF we accept the invitation.
It is MORE Biblical than changing the meaning of words like ALL and stating that it means ONLY all of the ELECT. Or changing words like whoever to ONLY the ELECT.
Let's see, perhaps "predestination of ONLY the ELECT". Calvinism 101, 201, 301, 401, 501. Every year in every Reformed doctrine college, university, seminary.
If humanity, by choice, rejects God, then humanity, by choice, can accept God. We are not limited to a one way spiritual street here. There is no Scripture, in context, that cofirms Calvin's doctrine of total depravity. Romans 3:11 is Paul combining OT Scriptures to make a point. Those OT Scriptures are Psalms, not prophecy, and not "thus sayeth the Lord" Scriptures. Paul took verses out of songs. Do you build your entire doctrine on the lyrics of songs?
Whether you, Calvin, Augustine, or Plato (from whom Augustine actually got determinism philosophy), like it or not, the Bible is full of righteous humans in the presence of God, before Jesus came to earth as a human. In fact, Jesus did not come to save the righteous. He came to save sinners.
Ah, now we come to what Wesley calls "prevenient grace". God, through Holy Spirit, draws ALL humanity to the foot of the cross. At that position we have a choice to either accept or reject Christ Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf to reconcile us to God, to once again take our rightful place in loving fellowship with God that was corrupted by Satan with Adam and Eve. If we accept, God begins to restore us to that position with Himself. He did all the work, and does all the work in our lives through the power of His Holy Spirit. We merely cooperate to a greater or lesser extent, which shows in our lives. We are either growing more holy, become stagnant, or fall away from His grace. Those Scriptures are straight forward and clearly stated. They need NO interpretation, for God wants them to be clear to His reconciled children. He wants us to remain reconciled and will keep us reconciled to Himself, IF we continue to abide in Jesus.
Show me the Scripture where it says you are the owner of depravity, or total depravity.
Yes, you did not realize that Augustine of Hippo was a student of Plato and derived his determinism philosophy from Plato and injected it into Christianity where before the 4th century it did not exist, and to this day does not exist in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Yes, it would, but you Calvinists limit God's ability by saying that not only Ephesians 1, but John 3 does not apply to everyone on earth. Even though, Scripture is quite clear about God's ability to present His salvation message to ALL. Please note what Paul actually wrote: "To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:" That "and are faithful" is key. It is a choice to remain faithful. God's predestination was culminated in Adam and Eve. You think too small of God. He predestined ALL humanity. Let's look beyond your Reformed proof text to verses 9 and 10: "making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."
Once again, Calvinists ignore that which does not conform to their doctrine, or change the meaning of words and phrases that do not agree and make them agree. What part of ALL things in him (both) things in Heaven and things on earth is God not capable of uniting in His will?
Here is a hint: those things that posess God given free will, which is used to go against His will. Otherwise, Peter would not have needed to say this: "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed."
Now, please explain the accepted Calvinist, Augustinian, Platonic meaning of " any" and "all" in Peter's 2nd letter to Christians.
No problem. I never run from dialogue with a reasonable Christian of the Calvinist persuasion. I used to be one, and then I found the truth of God's immeasurable love and found that Calvin was a murderer and lawyer, not a true theologian. John Wesley even made mention of Calvin in his A Plain Account of Christian Perfection. He stated clearly that he, John Wesley could not justify killing those who disagree with his theology, because there is NO Scriptural support to do so. That did not stop good ole Jean Cauvin, John Calvin's real name.
Blessings,
Lee
But you have not remained in Him have you? now you are relying upon His finished work at Calvary + you, your steadfastness, your faithfulness, your holinss etc etc. You have become co-redemptor with Christ...this is not the way to the christian REST which Hebrews exhorts us to enter.
And once again you are caught out in your own little web for just now you said this scripture was only given to the 12 apostles...when you wanted to proved that our being in Christ was by our freewill and choice and not as the Lord says in this scripture by His election "You have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"
You cried no the election only applied to the 12 apostles...but now when it comes to us having to hang on by the skin of our teeth to salvation and make ourselves miserable and everyone else around us in the process...you change your tune and insist the Lord was speaking to us all.
This was the reply you read and read again but didn't understand...you still don't understand, nor will you for you do not realize that your position arises from self sufficiency and pride.
Self sufficiency and pride are the most natural characteristics of us all. This scripture is to do with fruitbearing and usefulness and nothing to do with salvation.
And by the way Lee God predestined nobody to sin and be damned, I challenge you to find the scripture which says He did. You should stop accusing Him of saying that.
TL,
You really need to let go of your defensive positions concerning your doctrines. It clouds your view of what others who disagree with that doctrine write.
I do not support double predestination and never have. That is a hyper-Calvinist position, not my Wesleyan position and certainly not God's position.
In my Christianity, I do not even support Calvin's predestination of only the few elect. My posts clearly state as much throughout, with no opportunity for confusion, unless you skim and miss most of what I am saying in them. What you Reformed doctrine Christians fail to admit is that if God predestined some to Heaven, i.e. the elect, by His non-selection of what you call "reprobates", giving them absolutely NO opportunity to believe in His Son Jesus, through that non-selection, it is by default double predestination, for He allowed them to come into the world condemned with absolutely no opportunity for salvation in Christ Jesus. That, my friend, is predestination to Hell.
I am strongly a Christian of Wesleyan-Holiness doctrines. Reformed theology is about as far away from me as Venus or Mercury. I used to be one. I have read Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, completely several times. I have studied Calvin and probably know more about him and his theology than most who follow his theology and post on this forum. But that is my past life. I am now saved by grace through faith in Jesus, and follow Holy Spirit as He guides me in the life I now live by faith in the Son of God.
Your post of 12:34PM today is full of baseless accusations toward me. Your post of 12:41PM you have made intentionally confusing to make it appear that I am the one who is confused as to free will and God's choosing all mankind and then providing a choice to us. Then you make an accusation that I do not have the joy of the Lord in me, without any knowledge of me. You and I are not in the same location, do not know one another, except for a few posts on this forum. You have no knowledge of me outside of this forum.
Peace to you, and blessings from God the Father of our Savior Jesus the Christ,
Lee
You really need to let go of your defensive positions concerning your doctrines. It clouds your view of what others who disagree with that doctrine write.
I do not support double predestination and never have. That is a hyper-Calvinist position, not my Wesleyan position and certainly not God's position.
In my Christianity, I do not even support Calvin's predestination of only the few elect. My posts clearly state as much throughout, with no opportunity for confusion, unless you skim and miss most of what I am saying in them. What you Reformed doctrine Christians fail to admit is that if God predestined some to Heaven, i.e. the elect, by His non-selection of what you call "reprobates", giving them absolutely NO opportunity to believe in His Son Jesus, through that non-selection, it is by default double predestination, for He allowed them to come into the world condemned with absolutely no opportunity for salvation in Christ Jesus. That, my friend, is predestination to Hell.
I am strongly a Christian of Wesleyan-Holiness doctrines. Reformed theology is about as far away from me as Venus or Mercury. I used to be one. I have read Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, completely several times. I have studied Calvin and probably know more about him and his theology than most who follow his theology and post on this forum. But that is my past life. I am now saved by grace through faith in Jesus, and follow Holy Spirit as He guides me in the life I now live by faith in the Son of God.
Your post of 12:34PM today is full of baseless accusations toward me. Your post of 12:41PM you have made intentionally confusing to make it appear that I am the one who is confused as to free will and God's choosing all mankind and then providing a choice to us. Then you make an accusation that I do not have the joy of the Lord in me, without any knowledge of me. You and I are not in the same location, do not know one another, except for a few posts on this forum. You have no knowledge of me outside of this forum.
Peace to you, and blessings from God the Father of our Savior Jesus the Christ,
Lee
Why do you harp on about it then? as though Predestiny and Election were synonomous with damnation? why do you oppose predestiny and election? if you say you do not oppose those doctrines then you must acknowledge freewill to be false for the two doctrines are incompatible.
You will say you only oppose Calvin's predestiny and election but actually you oppse Paul for he says we were elected and predestined unto God's glory and praise before the world began....that rules out freewill.
You will say those predestined and elected were an unknown people, not yet determined but God declares "Whom He foreknew He also prestined and elected" This is the most glorious doctrine in the bible after salvation.
You will say you only oppose Calvin's predestiny and election but actually you oppse Paul for he says we were elected and predestined unto God's glory and praise before the world began....that rules out freewill.
You will say those predestined and elected were an unknown people, not yet determined but God declares "Whom He foreknew He also prestined and elected" This is the most glorious doctrine in the bible after salvation.