Theology Club: Predestination and freedom

[Lee52]

Why do you harp on about it then? as though Predestiny and Election were synonomous with damnation? why do you oppose predestiny and election? if you say you do not oppose those doctrines then you must acknowledge freewill to be false for the two doctrines are incompatible.

You will say you only oppose Calvin's predestiny and election but actually you oppse Paul for he says we were elected and predestined unto God's glory and praise before the world began....that rules out freewill.

You will say those predestined and elected were an unknown people, not yet determined but God declares "Whom He foreknew He also prestined and elected" This is the most glorious doctrine in the bible after salvation.

Once again, I believe that the Bible is accurate in saying that God predestined ALL of humanity to have opportunity to accept reconciliation to Himself through His Son Jesus. God created humanity with free will, in His image. So, all humans are the elect of God, and just as Jesus parable of the seeds and parable of the 10 virgins and the parable of wedding feast invitation, tell us, there are some who will accept that election and some who will reject that election.

To put it into human USA political terms, the people of my Congressional district might write me in on a ballot and by some strange occurance, elect me to serve them in the US Congress over one of the Party candidates for either the R or D side of the Party. I have the opportunity to accept the results of the election and become a Congressman, OR, I can decline that election and not join the US Congress, OR, I could accept the election and later find out that I was not cut out to be a member of the US Congress and resign and go home. In each case, I am still elected. In two out of the three, I am at some point in time a Congressman. To be continually a Congressman, I have to stay in the US Congress, because as soon as I leave, I am no longer a member of that body.

Now, if I join the Party and am elected, the Party will keep me in office no matter what if I abide in the Party and the Party abides in me. You see, in the USA, once a person from either side of the R&D Party is elected, it is nearly impossible for anyone to snatch them out of that office. They Party protects them and holds onto them and funds them and keeps them in office as long as they do the bidding of the Party, until they leave office of their own volition.

Close similarities to our faith.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Totton Linnet]

Once again, I believe that the Bible is accurate in saying that God predestined ALL of humanity to have opportunity to accept reconciliation to Himself through His Son Jesus. God created humanity with free will, in His image. So, all humans are the elect of God, and just as Jesus parable of the seeds and parable of the 10 virgins and the parable of wedding feast invitation, tell us, there are some who will accept that election and some who will reject that election.

To put it into human USA political terms, the people of my Congressional district might write me in on a ballot and by some strange occurance, elect me to serve them in the US Congress over one of the Party candidates for either the R or D side of the Party. I have the opportunity to accept the results of the election and become a Congressman, OR, I can decline that election and not join the US Congress, OR, I could accept the election and later find out that I was not cut out to be a member of the US Congress and resign and go home. In each case, I am still elected. In two out of the three, I am at some point in time a Congressman. To be continually a Congressman, I have to stay in the US Congress, because as soon as I leave, I am no longer a member of that body.

Now, if I join the Party and am elected, the Party will keep me in office no matter what if I abide in the Party and the Party abides in me. You see, in the USA, once a person from either side of the R&D Party is elected, it is nearly impossible for anyone to snatch them out of that office. They Party protects them and holds onto them and funds them and keeps them in office as long as they do the bidding of the Party, until they leave office of their own volition.

Close similarities to our faith.

Blessings,
Lee

*
It is not the bible, that's the problem...you will always be inconsistent in everything if you take [or twist to your own liking] truths out of the bible.

It is a rather foolish definition to say all are elect or chosen for who or what were they elected an chosen from? if all are the same? especially as they are chosen before they did either good or evil...if evil is the rejection [and it must be] the bible says they were rejected before they did it.

See you take out one doctrine or change it and you have to take out or change another to accomodate it...that's how the bible works. You end up with a completely different gospel.

That is what happened to the Roman church and it is happening with protestant too.

You have thrown out inborn sin, that Adam's sin has passed on to all men...it doesn't suit your dainty nose but it is what the bible teaches.

As a race we rejected God [you keep saying you chose Him] we are in rejection of Him. Rebellion. That is man's settled condition and it is so with every man and every women. We are helplessly, hopelessly lost...THAT is what your pride can't bear, that you should be helpless and hopeless. Only God's good grace and mercy can save you.

That is what you accepted at the cross...you never came to Him saying that you would help Him to save you, you cried "Lord save! I perish"

Your political analogy doesn't hold for God granted you life and you rejected it...it is done. That was your choice. But God has had mercy upon you and granted you repentance.

Now your pride has re-asserted itself [and we all have that pride] and you are saying you did it or are doing it or will do it. Your own little golden calf "behold your god oh Lee who brought you up out of the land of Egypt"

No Jew had freewill in Egypt they were in hard bondage, so were we. How ungrateful to say now that you did not nee to be set free and saved.

 

[Lee52]

You have thrown out inborn sin, that Adam's sin has passed on to all men...it doesn't suit your dainty nose but it is what the bible teaches.

Chapter and verse please. And please do not make Romans 5 attempt to make sin inborn in humanity for it does not say that. It says that sin is in the world, not in humanity. Here:

More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men & women because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Romans 5:11-13 ESV

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Romans 5:15-18 ESV

You just cannot get around verse 18 here. It says clearly exactly what it says.

Now, in the Eastern Church, unadulterated by Platonic-Augustinian-Calvinism, they teach via OT Scriptures uncorrupted by the above philosophy of determinism, that sin came to Adam and Eve via Satan and his influential temptation to sin, by lying to a young and naïve Adam and Eve. Satan introduced sin into the world through Adam and Eve, and death due to that sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve because God told them if they ate the fruit of THAT tree, they would surely die. Guess what? They died, where God's original intent was for them to NOT DIE.

But, or should I say "and", sin is not inherited from Adam and Eve to all of humanity. Adam and Eve paid for their own sin and everyone else pays for their own sins. God does not pass the sin of the father to the son under the new covenant. (read Ezekiel and Jeremiah for understanding).

Here: “Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV

In those days they shall no longer say:

“‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.’

But everyone shall die for his own iniquity. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:29-34 ESV

 

[Lee52]

As a race we rejected God [you keep saying you chose Him] we are in rejection of Him. Rebellion. That is man's settled condition and it is so with every man and every women. We are helplessly, hopelessly lost...THAT is what your pride can't bear, that you should be helpless and hopeless. Only God's good grace and mercy can save you.

Chapter and verse please.......

You keep talking about my pride. I have no pride, certainly not in self. I am neither helpless nor hopeless for my hope is in He whom has overcome the world and with it defeated death and corruption and took the keys to that death away from Satan.

No, TL, I am surely not hopeless, for my hope is in Jesus the Messiah, only begotten Son of the Most High God, Creator of all things. There is no better hope in the universe.

You should really stop talking about people and things to which you know nothing about.

Good grief, Lord give me patience with this person, Amen.
Lee

 

[Totton Linnet]

Chapter and verse please.......

You keep talking about my pride. I have no pride, certainly not in self. I am neither helpless nor hopeless for my hope is in He whom has overcome the world and with it defeated death and corruption and took the keys to that death away from Satan.

No, TL, I am surely not hopeless, for my hope is in Jesus the Messiah, only begotten Son of the Most High God, Creator of all things. There is no better hope in the universe.

You should really stop talking about people and things to which you know nothing about.

Good grief, Lord give me patience with this person, Amen.
Lee

*
You have been shown the word of God which says by "the sin of one judgement came upon all men..." they just sem to bounce off you, you also are in denial of the historical fact that every man without exception sins, you even are in denial that YOU are a sinner by nature. Thi nature was given you by Adam.

I also have said that we all have this pride...here you say you have not that pride which is in every man. That is the difference between us, I see it in myself and it's tendencies...you do not.

Massive contradiction all "workers" of salvation have it..."I am nothing you say, I can do nothing you say" you then go on to preach all we must do to stay saved.

But your hope is not in Christ is it, if it were you would rest in Him and what He has done, is doing and will do for you which you cannot do yourself.

Yes you would do well to be patient...God's truth has power, He Himself is very interested to confirm it. The flesh of man and the mind of the flesh rises up in anger against God's word...which is why we are exhorted to renew our minds to find [not freewill] but the perfect will of God.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Chapter and verse please. And please do not make Romans 5 attempt to make sin inborn in humanity for it does not say that. It says that sin is in the world, not in humanity. Here:

More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men & women because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Romans 5:11-13 ESV

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Romans 5:15-18 ESV

You just cannot get around verse 18 here. It says clearly exactly what it says.

Now, in the Eastern Church, unadulterated by Platonic-Augustinian-Calvinism, they teach via OT Scriptures uncorrupted by the above philosophy of determinism, that sin came to Adam and Eve via Satan and his influential temptation to sin, by lying to a young and naïve Adam and Eve. Satan introduced sin into the world through Adam and Eve, and death due to that sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve because God told them if they ate the fruit of THAT tree, they would surely die. Guess what? They died, where God's original intent was for them to NOT DIE.

But, or should I say "and", sin is not inherited from Adam and Eve to all of humanity. Adam and Eve paid for their own sin and everyone else pays for their own sins. God does not pass the sin of the father to the son under the new covenant. (read Ezekiel and Jeremiah for understanding).

Here: “Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV

In those days they shall no longer say:

“‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.’

But everyone shall die for his own iniquity. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:29-34 ESV

You quote the very word which tells you that sin came upon the world and death by sin...since all men sin all die....This comes by Adam. Adam was created in God's image but all his children were born in his own image.

Jeremiah doesn't say that the children will not sin or will not die...they will. Never was man but One who did not sin.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Once again you say God elected or chose all men [from who then or what did He make a choice?] but the bible says "who" "who He foreknew He also predestined and elected" not who He did not foreknow...an uncertain or unknown people...how can you preplan somebody's life without knowing who they are?

 

[Lee52]

Once again you say God elected or chose all men [from who then or what did He make a choice?] but the bible says "who" "who He foreknew He also predestined and elected" not who He did not foreknow...an uncertain or unknown people...how can you preplan somebody's life without knowing who they are?

IT WAS A SCRIPTURE REFERENCE COPIED RIGHT OUT OF THE BIBLE!!

Take it up with GOD, not me............AND,

God preplans all of our lives and then gives us the choice to follow His plan OR NOT. Why can you not understand that?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Totton Linnet]

IT WAS A SCRIPTURE REFERENCE COPIED RIGHT OUT OF THE BIBLE!!

Take it up with GOD, not me............AND,

God preplans all of our lives and then gives us the choice to follow His plan OR NOT. Why can you not understand that?

Blessings,
Lee

Yes it was "as by one man sin entered into the world and death through sin so death passed upon ALL men for that ALL had sinned"

This you deny.

"their eyes He hath closed and stopped their ears lest they should turn to Me and be forgiven" did these have a choice?

 

[Lee52]

Yes it was "as by one man sin entered into the world and death through sin so death passed upon ALL men for that ALL had sinned"

This you deny.

"their eyes He hath closed and stopped their ears lest they should turn to Me and be forgiven" did these have a choice?

You are consistent. That is not what I said. I said that all of humanity was not inborn with sin, as you maintained.

I don't know how to break this to you gently, so I will have to settle for lovingly, Calvin, (not his real name) was wrong, as was Augustine of Hippo, as was Plato.

Hang on, I will go back to my original post which you misquote, and bring it above this one for clarity and reinforcement of what I ACTUALLY TYPED.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Lee52]

You quote the very word which tells you that sin came upon the world and death by sin...since all men sin all die....This comes by Adam. Adam was created in God's image but all his children were born in his own image.

Jeremiah doesn't say that the children will not sin or will not die...they will. Never was man but One who did not sin.

Chapter and verse that says Adam's children were born in Adam's image not God's......???

 

[Lee52]

Here you go.

Chapter and verse please. And please do not make Romans 5 attempt to make sin inborn in humanity for it does not say that. It says that sin is in the world, not in humanity. Here:

More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men & women because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Romans 5:11-13 ESV

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Romans 5:15-18 ESV

You just cannot get around verse 18 here. It says clearly exactly what it says.

Now, in the Eastern Church, unadulterated by Platonic-Augustinian-Calvinism, they teach via OT Scriptures uncorrupted by the above philosophy of determinism, that sin came to Adam and Eve via Satan and his influential temptation to sin, by lying to a young and naïve Adam and Eve. Satan introduced sin into the world through Adam and Eve, and death due to that sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve because God told them if they ate the fruit of THAT tree, they would surely die. Guess what? They died, where God's original intent was for them to NOT DIE.

But, or should I say "and", sin is not inherited from Adam and Eve to all of humanity. Adam and Eve paid for their own sin and everyone else pays for their own sins. God does not pass the sin of the father to the son under the new covenant. (read Ezekiel and Jeremiah for understanding).

Here: “Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV

In those days they shall no longer say:

“‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.’

But everyone shall die for his own iniquity. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:29-34 ESV

Oh, and by the way, YOU HAVE CONTINUALLY AVOIDED POSTING YOUR SCRIPTURE REFERENCES FOR YOUR BELIEFS.
That is typical of all Calvinists I have ever encountered. When pinned down, they fail to provide anything in Scripture to back up their beliefs. There beliefs are based upon eisegesis of Scripture, therefore, those who are not really absolutely sure of what Calvin, (not his real name), actually taught, they are stopped in their tracks.

So, TL, how about you answer my requests for Scripture references to what you have said, individually, in response to each of my requests?

I supply Scripture for my beliefs. How about you?

Lord Jesus, give me patience, please,

Lee

 

[Lee52]

*
You have been shown the word of God which says by "the sin of one judgement came upon all men..." they just sem to bounce off you, you also are in denial of the historical fact that every man without exception sins, you even are in denial that YOU are a sinner by nature. Thi nature was given you by Adam.

And you keep ignoring the rest of the passage. Please, read on. I post your proof text and then keeping it in context show the rest of the verses around it.

Here: But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Romans 5:15-18 ESV

See how easy that is to keep Scripture in context?

Did you see that very last sentence?

 

[Lee52]

By the way, TL,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to post all Scripture in context in answer to your inquisition of me. My faith is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness...... I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name. On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand...."Text: Edward Mote, 1797-1874 / Music: William B. Bradbury, 1816-1868"


I now give you opportunity to provide all readers of this forum the Scripture references that you base your beliefs upon.

 

[Totton Linnet]

By the way, TL,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to post all Scripture in context in answer to your inquisition of me. My faith is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness...... I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name. On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand...."Text: Edward Mote, 1797-1874 / Music: William B. Bradbury, 1816-1868"


I now give you opportunity to provide all readers of this forum the Scripture references that you base your beliefs upon.

But you DON'T this is your great inconsistency, you believe in your own righteousness as neccesary to keep you saved...that is what we are arguing about.

Scriptures really do bounce off of you for I have given them aplenty.

 

[Totton Linnet]

And you keep ignoring the rest of the passage. Please, read on. I post your proof text and then keeping it in context show the rest of the verses around it.

Here: But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Romans 5:15-18 ESV

See how easy that is to keep Scripture in context?

Did you see that very last sentence?

It says nothing about the sin that is brought upon all men by Adam but what God has done about it. If we were not sinners after the manner of Adam's sin this would have no meaning. The fact remains that one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all and one act of righteousness leads to justification for all.

If you deny the condemnation of one man [Adam] what claim can you have upon Christ's act of righteousness whereby you are justified?

 

[Lee52]

It says nothing about the sin that is brought upon all men by Adam but what God has done about it. If we were not sinners after the manner of Adam's sin this would have no meaning. The fact remains that one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all and one act of righteousness leads to justification for all.

If you deny the condemnation of one man [Adam] what claim can you have upon Christ's act of righteousness whereby you are justified?

I have never denied Adam's sin and God's condemnation of Adam.

You again change the subject to avoid providing Scripture to support your theology.

You attempt to put me on the defensive to answer your attacks so that you do not have to provide your Scripture references.

Your redirect and attack is an old, old tactic of Calvinists that do not know how to defend their religion.

Answer my requests for Scriptural support for your positions.

Blessings to you and I pray the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth,
Lee

 

[Totton Linnet]

This scripture speaks about Adam's sin being passed upon all men

I have given plenty scripture, it just bounces off you.

 

[Lee52]

Oh, and it is bedtime here in Germany, you have all of my night to Google your Calvinist theology to present at least the book justification from the Synod of Dort.

(BTW, Calvin's Institutes are also available online, but all night will not be enough time for you to read them through).

Stick with the justification of TULIP from the Synod.....

Blessings and I will include your search for truth of God in my prayers.

I look forward to reading your responses and Scripture references in the morning.

Could some noteworthy Reformed person help her out here?

Thanks,
Good night all. May God richly bless all who are Christians and also those searching for Jesus. Amen.

Lee

 

[Lee52]

This scripture speaks about Adam's sin being passed upon all men

I have given plenty scripture, it just bounces off you.

Where? Where have you provided Scripture? Not on this thread. Not to me over the course of the last couple of days.

Please, I have posted Scripture.

I am slow of mind, please be kind and provide me with the Scriptures that you base your theology upon.

Thank you,
Lee