Theology Club: Predestination and freedom

[Totton Linnet]

For those (plural, Body of Christ) whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son…and these (plural, Body of Christ) whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

God foreknew the corporate Body of Christ before any member came into existence just as He foreknew the corporate nation of Israel (Rom. 11:2) before any member came into existence. He predetermined that this Body would be conformed into the image of His Son, called into service, justified and glorified.

God KNEW you would cry out to him sometime during your lifetime as He became intimately acquainted with your heart.

Well, are you now saying "who He did NOT foreknow He also predestined"? Surely our lives are so individually planned, our call comes personally, our conforming process to the image of His Son is so individual to each of us and we understand that we will not all attain the same glory...although we will all attain to glory.

Freewill salvation is a chance deal.

 

[surrender]

Well, are you now saying "who He did NOT foreknow He also predestined"?

No, I’m not saying that.

 

[Totton Linnet]

But it seems to niggle at you that God foreknew and preplanned for YOU personally to be brought into the kingdom of His dear Son.

 

[surrender]

But it seems to niggle at you that God foreknew and preplanned for YOU personally to be brought into the kingdom of His dear Son.

No, it doesn't. Why would it?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Because it shows that you were born again "not by the will of man [freewill] nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God."

 

[Lee52]

Because it shows that you were born again "not by the will of man [freewill] nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God."

TL,
What if?

What if it is the will of God that He gives all humanity the ability to choose, AND, it is His will that we do choose Him, but wills to not force us to choose Him?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Cross Reference]

How 'bout we try seeing it as God predestined mankind to be as He is? Sin and man's failure, notwithstanding because He provided a way of reconciliation from the beginning__i.e., His beginning.

Might we also see this as the reason why Jesus never said, 'go get people saved' but, rather "go and make disciples"?

Try reading you Bible with that perspective and see how it reads anew.

 

[Totton Linnet]

TL,
What if?

What if it is the will of God that He gives all humanity the ability to choose, AND, it is His will that we do choose Him, but wills to not force us to choose Him?

Blessings,
Lee

What if we turn the truth into lie does it matter? isn't a lie just as good as the truth? you need words to make the lie same as you need words to make the truth and basically all words mean the same thing..don't they? why is it so important to establish the truth? why does the devil work so darn hard to get a lie accepted.

This is the christian battleground, it is here that the battle of life is fought out...now if you are saved you will not lose your salvation, the devil knows that but he still has prizes worth fighting for.

He can make us ineffectual in our ministry, he can make us unjoyful he can rob us of victory.

These are all prizes well worth his fighting for...as you look around you might ask if he is being successful on a very large scale.

The difference between the lie that we chose God and the truth that He chose us is as different as black is to white and as far apart as the east is to the west.

One of these positions puts man in the driving position and the other puts God in the driving position. If you was the devil who would you rather was in the driving position?

The statement of Jesus is perfectly straightforward and clear "You have not chosen Me but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should bear much fruit"...this is what is at stake, not salvation but fruit.

No epistle ever begins with "thanks be unto God who has given us freewill by which we have been enabled to make a decision to accept Jesus Christ" it simply is not the language of the bible...always "God chose us and redeemed us by His own good will"

Man has already chosen, he chose in the garden when he was surrounded by everything that was beautiful to the sight and good for food...in other word when he was in prosperity, this was [and is and always has been] God's good will for man while on this earth. Man chose to rebel and reject God's will....that is what it has always been about. Man chose poverty over abundance, sin over righteousness, bondage over freedom, death over life.

That is man's present condition while he is unsaved. He is poor, he is a sinner, he is sick and dying [he is in fact already dead while he walks] and he is in bondage. He has no hope whatever.

The only hope there is is that God will have mercy and grant life and pardon and liberty once more...YOU are saying man can decide this for himself, I say that is the talk of a rebel.

 

[Totton Linnet]

How 'bout we try seeing it as God predestined mankind to be as He is? Sin and man's failure, notwithstanding because He provided a way of reconciliation from the beginning__i.e., His beginning.

Might we also see this as the reason why Jesus never said, 'go get people saved' but, rather "go and make disciples"?

Try reading you Bible with that perspective and see how it reads anew.

Never, never will I say God had anything to do with man's sin, other than to forewarn the man and this He faithfully did.

He foreSAW that man would sin, what He did in wisdom and foreknowledge was to predestine man's salvation

Yes but YOU say that salvation IS man's work. It is because of our believing, our accepting and our obedience [you say] if we don't do our part neither can God do His part.

It is a completely different frame of mind when we are dealing with men's souls to think "If I preach faithfully God is going to come and make good my lack...I cain't save this person, I can't induce him to salvation. only God can come and zap the butte off him and breathe on him and make him COME ALIVE with the life of the Holy Ghost."

But all your preaching is wheedling, cajoling, persauding, scaring the crap out of him in order to make the MAN decide to be saved. Your preaching is manward, the freegrace way is GODward in expectancy that God will send the Holy Ghost down from heaven and confirm the word preached and make it good.

There is so much more to this debate...for as a man or woman starts out in this thing so he will carry on throughout his christian life.

One will walk upright and steady the other will stagger and stumble along. One is the joyful, triumphant way the other of struggling and oft defeats...the way of the heavy yoke.

 

[Cross Reference]

How 'bout we try seeing it as God predestined mankind to be as He is? Sin and man's failure, notwithstanding because He provided a way of reconciliation from the beginning__i.e., His beginning.

Might we also see this as the reason why Jesus never said, 'go get people saved' but, rather "go and make disciples"?

Try reading you Bible with that perspective and see how it reads anew.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I know that way of reading the bible, I believe the bible should be read as it is written not taking away from or as you are doing adding to it.

I ask you again why do the freewill crowd preach as though THEY must go get people saved?

 

[Cross Reference]

I know that way of reading the bible, I believe the bible should be read as it is written not taking away from or as you are doing adding to it.

I ask you again why do the freewill crowd preach as though THEY must go get people saved?

Why not learn how to read for understanding before asking questions?

 

[Totton Linnet]

How is you do not understand, but instead of asking folks who do know you preach for doctrines what you neither know or have...you don't have faith, you preach doubt, you don't have assurance, you preach hit and miss salvation.

Doubt and uncertainty are the substance of your doctrine...mine is faith and assurance.

 

[Cross Reference]

How is you do not understand, but instead of asking folks who do know you preach for doctrines what you neither know or have...you don't have faith, you preach doubt, you don't have assurance, you preach hit and miss salvation.

With respect to the request made by the Forum owner . . . . ignore button hit

 

[Totton Linnet]

You have never been able to stand before the Holy Ghost

How many times we are exhorted to "have faith" or "fear not"...but you want people to fear much. John didn't say "these things are written that you might not know...but that ye might KNOW"

 

[Lighthouse]

I know that way of reading the bible, I believe the bible should be read as it is written not taking away from or as you are doing adding to it.

I ask you again why do the freewill crowd preach as though THEY must go get people saved?

We can save no one. All we must do is preach the gospel and those who hear the word will have faith and He will save them by His grace.

 

[Totton Linnet]

You have faith and grace in the wrong order.

It's a funny old thing, I suppose inwardly faith is the first thing we are aware of with regard to the gospel...but a little diligent bible study reveals that before we had faith God extended His grace toward us...first He had mercy, then He extended the hand of grace, He preached His word and we believed it, and even this believing was His faith not ours.

By GRACE are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves....lest any man should boast in God's presence.

Aw they like to have a little boast don't they? they don't like thatGod should have all the glory. No no it was their obedience, their faithfulness, their holiness,
because they stuck at it.

It was THEIR golden calf which brought them up out of the land of Egypt...they were not in bondage they had freewill...they could turn and choose not to make bricks of straw whenever they liked.

 

[Lee52]

What if we turn the truth into lie does it matter? isn't a lie just as good as the truth? you need words to make the lie same as you need words to make the truth and basically all words mean the same thing..don't they? why is it so important to establish the truth? why does the devil work so darn hard to get a lie accepted.

This is the christian battleground, it is here that the battle of life is fought out...now if you are saved you will not lose your salvation, the devil knows that but he still has prizes worth fighting for.

He can make us ineffectual in our ministry, he can make us unjoyful he can rob us of victory.


These are all prizes well worth his fighting for...as you look around you might ask if he is being successful on a very large scale.

The difference between the lie that we chose God and the truth that He chose us is as different as black is to white and as far apart as the east is to the west.

One of these positions puts man in the driving position and the other puts God in the driving position. If you was the devil who would you rather was in the driving position?

The statement of Jesus is perfectly straightforward and clear "You have not chosen Me but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should bear much fruit"...this is what is at stake, not salvation but fruit.

No epistle ever begins with "thanks be unto God who has given us freewill by which we have been enabled to make a decision to accept Jesus Christ" it simply is not the language of the bible...always "God chose us and redeemed us by His own good will"

Man has already chosen, he chose in the garden when he was surrounded by everything that was beautiful to the sight and good for food...in other word when he was in prosperity, this was [and is and always has been] God's good will for man while on this earth. Man chose to rebel and reject God's will....that is what it has always been about. Man chose poverty over abundance, sin over righteousness, bondage over freedom, death over life.

That is man's present condition while he is unsaved. He is poor, he is a sinner, he is sick and dying [he is in fact already dead while he walks] and he is in bondage. He has no hope whatever.

The only hope there is is that God will have mercy and grant life and pardon and liberty once more...YOU are saying man can decide this for himself, I say that is the talk of a rebel.

TL,
In John 15 that you have quoted, Jesus was talking specifically to his disciples in the present tense in preparation for His trial and crucifiction. In that context, He was speaking the Truth to them. If you continue to read in John from what we have as chapter 15 right on through Chapter 16, you will see Jesus leave the disciples and go for a time of private prayer to Father God in Chapter 17, when He finally mentions you and me in the latter part of that Chapter=prayer. Up until THAT time, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to you and me specifically. It is wrong to take text out of context and apply it universally, unless it was intended universally, such as the 3rd Chapter of John. Please, read John in context. It is a wonderful Gospel presentation when one keeps it that way.

And, you cannot find any reference to original sin of humanity being passed on to all of humanity. The one and only reference is taken out of context to make it fit Jean Cauvin's (John Calvin's real name) bent in keeping with his mentor of the 4th century Augustine of Hippo. Prior to Augustine, predestination and determinist philosophy was not a part of Biblical teaching and practice, EXCEPT by the Gnostics.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Cross Reference]

We can save no one. All we must do is preach the gospel and those who hear the word will have faith and He will save them by His grace.

You mean the righteous will hear and be turned to Christ once He has been explained to them as being what they have seen and thought that convinced them there was a God but they didn't know His Name, correct? So now they are made to be His disciples as Jesus commanded they become. I think I see the Great Commission being advanced in that.

 

[Totton Linnet]

TL,
In John 15 that you have quoted, Jesus was talking specifically to his disciples in the present tense in preparation for His trial and crucifiction. In that context, He was speaking the Truth to them. If you continue to read in John from what we have as chapter 15 right on through Chapter 16, you will see Jesus leave the disciples and go for a time of private prayer to Father God in Chapter 17, when He finally mentions you and me in the latter part of that Chapter=prayer. Up until THAT time, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to you and me specifically. It is wrong to take text out of context and apply it universally, unless it was intended universally, such as the 3rd Chapter of John. Please, read John in context. It is a wonderful Gospel presentation when one keeps it that way.

And, you cannot find any reference to original sin of humanity being passed on to all of humanity. The one and only reference is taken out of context to make it fit Jean Cauvin's (John Calvin's real name) bent in keeping with his mentor of the 4th century Augustine of Hippo. Prior to Augustine, predestination and determinist philosophy was not a part of Biblical teaching and practice, EXCEPT by the Gnostics.

Blessings,
Lee

*
Well you are the boys who are always belabouring us with "we must abide in Christ, we must bear fruit, we must love one another..."or we shall lose our salvation say you...so all the duties of John 14-17 [why start at 15] we must be scrupulous to do but all the grace and truth which make the being and the doing possible are only for the 12 and one of those a traitor.

So the Holy Ghost the Comforter is only for the 12.

I told you, didn't I tell you? you read too much the fathers [so called] didn't I tell you that? I told you that didn't I? did I say to you that you read too much the fathers [so called]? did I say they will lead you astray?

I told you.

When they teach you that the Lord's address in John 14-17 [why start at 15]? is only for the 12 holy and glorified apostles and one of them a traitor they are asserting the doctrine of the clergy, episcopalianism, two ranks and classes of christian, the elite and holy class and the common or garden class, that's you and me, so they suppose.

Lovers of Jesus down through the centuries of time have loved and treasured this discourse of Jesus and clasped it to their bosom and made them their own .

But suppose you for a moment that what the fathers [so called] assert is true, didn't I tell you that you read too much the fathers [so called]? I told you that. But suppose it is true for a moment, Jesus is the Vine and they were the branches, so there were only twelve branches one of these was the traitor so when God lopped him off there was only eleven...where is the glorious number 12 gone? for the fathers [so called] teach that they are the pillars upon which God's temple is builded, the magic 12 um...eleven, you say ah but they had a lottery and Mathias was chosen to take Judas place so the magic number was restored...once again the Vine has the requisite 12 branches...the magic 12. But then oops along comes Paul. Now there is the magic 13.

But you say the apostles were chosen, you acknowledge [I suppose] that they did not choose Christ but Christ chose them and ordained them that they might bear much fruit...yet you seem to imply if we are to go forth and bear much fruit we must choose ourselves...it must be our choosing and deciding, we must pull ourselves somehow up by our bootstraps [and this is exactly how all you guys teach and preach] to reach the position of branches on the Vine...for you will acknowledge only branches can bear fruit and that only if they abide in the Vine.

As for your assertion that sin did not enter the world through one man and death by sin and that death passed upon all men for that all men sinned I call to witness Paul for he said it did. Not only does Paul tell you but the history of the whole world tells you that all men sin from nature and all men die. Not only does the bible say and history say [for there has been no exceptions] but if you will go to the mirror and look therein you will see that YOU too are a sinner, your own nature witnesses against you.

You never chose God, you chose sin as your father Adam did.