Theology Club: Predestination and freedom

Lee52

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Originally Posted by Lee
We are not limited to a one way spiritual street here. There is no Scripture, in context, that confirms Calvin's doctrine of total depravity.

Of course there are. Here are just a few.
Ephesians 2:1-3, John 6:44, Romans 3:1-23 and 2 Cor 4:3-4.

Remember, I said in context......So, let us look at your proof texts, one at a time:

Remember that the Letter to the Ephesian Christians was a letter. It is much more honest to read it in one setting without chapters and verses. In that manner, one can discern what it is that Paul is saying to the Christians in Ephesus of that day and why, because Paul actually explains it all in the letter.

When viewed in this manner, we see that Paul actually has a rather Eastern Orthodox Church view of ancestral sin, versus the Western RCC and Reformed view of original sin. Paul explains that we humans before salvation in Christ Jesus are walking in sin, following the devil instead of following God. He does not actually say that sin is inherited from Adam, nor that sin is inherent in humans. He said we were dead, (spiritually) due to walking in sin=following Satan. Nothing here says that humanity is totally depraved. Misguided, decieved, walking in darkness, following the wrong guide, but not totally depraved.

More to follow as we examine your other proof texts in context.

Blessings,

Lee
 

Lee52

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John 6:44.

The key to John 6:44 is John 3:14-16, John 6:40, and John 12:32.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Whom did God the Father give to Jesus? Hint: look at the bold in verses above........

In all cases in the Greek the word pas and pantas are unrestrictive to a specific group of all. All in each of these is everyone, all people, NOT all of the elect, or only those predestined, all here means ALL.

Blessings,
Lee
 

Lee52

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Romans 3, the great proof text of Calvin's total depravity of all of humanity!!

Paul misquoting several OT Psalms, songs written in times of great travail.

Ya know, I really, REALLY like Contemporary Christian music. It has much worth in Praise and Worship service. (I really like JesusCulture and Hillsong.) It speaks forth much truth of the Spirit and love of God to us. God truly does inhabit the praise of His people. I will not base my theology on those Contemporary Christian lyrics. I won't even base my theology on Hymms written by Charles Wesley. So, I am also unwilling to take single verses of lyrics of the Psalms and base theological doctrine upon them. Yes, they are inspired by God in many cases, and they have great value to those in the faith, but they are not theological doctrine and were not intended to be so by the Church Fathers that included them in the Canon of Scripture.

That said, let's get started with in context review of Romans 3.

Once again, this is a letter from Paul to Christians. The recipients are already born-again Christians. They must have been very excited to recieve this letter. They most assuredly read it in groups from start to finish in one sitting, as a letter, not as a book with chapters. So, again, we must read it as it was written to squeeze the essence of the letter out, rather than focusing on a few verses in the middle and ignoring the rest as inconvenient to our favored doctrine.

Blessings,
Lee
 

Lee52

New member
Okay, sorry for the delay in response to Romans 3, work is a necessary interuption......lol.

Romans 3, as I said is part of a letter. This letter from Paul starts out painting a picture of his view of all humanity without Jesus, both Gentile and Jew. In fact, in chapter 2, Paul rakes the Jews for having the Scriptures of the OT and not realizing that they all pointed straight at Jesus. There is, in addition, in Romans 2 a set of verses that are very, very important about the total depravity of humanity being a false doctrine.

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. Romans 2:13-16 ESV

Did you understand that? There are those, without the Law and the Prophets, Gentiles who God wrote the work of the Law upon their hearts and they were righteous in their thoughts and actions apart from the Law and apart from Jesus, because God had written righeousness in their hearts. And, get this: "God alone judges them by Christ Jesus", when they die, because they were/are doers of the Law, not hearers only.

Now, as to Romans 3:24-26, Paul was actually taking some liberty with what was actually written in the Hebrew Psalm 14 combined with Psalm 53. Instead of quoting those from the Hebrew, he chose to quote them from the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew. If we look at Psalm 14, we see whom it is in verse one that is basically indicting the Lord God and telling him that there are none righteous on the earth. The last half of the Psalm tells a different story.

Psalm 14: ESV
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.


2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.


3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.


4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?


5 There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You would shame the plans of the poor,
but the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

So, the evangelist Paul, is making a point with Scripture to make a written alter call. Have none here been in a congregation with an evangelist preaching hell-fire and damnation to all in attendance? They use colorful metaphors to bring people to the alter by beating them down with their words of condemnation, as if those words apply to them specifically. Since Calvinism is a doctrine of condemnation of all but the elect of God, Paul's misquote without the rest of the story is exactly what they need to beat people down with the Bible into submission and a run down the aisle to the alter to find out if they can become one of the elect.

Psalm 53 ESV:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.


2 God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.


3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.


4 Have those who work evil no knowledge,
who eat up my people as they eat bread,
and do not call upon God?


5 There they are, in great terror,
where there is no terror!
For God scatters the bones of him who encamps against you;
you put them to shame, for God has rejected them.


6 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When God restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

Wow, two songs that look almost identical. Go figure? I wonder, do we today have two songs in which the lyrics are almost the same?

Do we really want to base the keystone of our theology on songs? Both were written by King David, who had a general killed so he could have Bathsheba for himself, who had a son Absalom trying to kill him and take his throne. Do you suppose that perhaps David had a pretty dark view of the world and humans from time to time in his life?

Romans 3:24-26 bumps up against so much other Scripture that one is standing on really shaky ground to base one of one's key tennets of doctrine upon it, especially when one understands that David wrote the Psalms being quoted around the time he was involved with Bathsheba on 14 and his son Absalom around the time of 53. No wonder David started them both out with the same first verse. Perhaps David was being self-critical in calling himself the fool.

Again, pretty flimsy evidence of the total depravity of humanity, since no other Scriptures support that position in context.

Blessings,
Lee
 

Tambora

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Yes, everyone is made in God's image, though TL denies that. She said that after Adam's sin, all humans bear inbred sin from Adam and are now created in Adam's image. I cannot find a Scripture that supports her "created in Adam's image" in the Bible and she will not provide one.
She was probably talking about Genesis 5:1-3.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Dialogos,
Thanks for your response. I will reply to each as we go through the day, as I have time. I will make one remark here concerning the Psalms and your position. You talk about context in the preceding areas and then want to take the Psalms out of context of who wrote them and why.
No I don't. Perhaps Paul did, but then you will have to take that up with Paul and the Holy Spirit for inspiring Paul to take those verses and string them together to make his point.

Furthermore, I don't even think that Paul took those verses out of context. Rather, I happen to disagree with you that the context somehow invalidates the plain meaning of those verses.

So when Paul or David says, "No one seeks after God." I don't understand why you think the context invalidates that claim. In short, I don't think the context invalidates the content.

Perhaps you can explain.

How do you substantiate your argument that the context of the passage (being situated in a song) means that content of the verse is somehow invalidated?

I think I get pretty close to an answer here.

Lee said:
Some were songs of joy, some were songs of great travail. Some are merely songs or poems. Were they God inspired, some yes, some no.
This is part of the problem. If you don't think that the entirety of the bible is inspired, then we aren't on the same page in terms of the basics.

I'd merely point out that if you don't think that all of scripture is inspired then how do you discern which psalms were inspired and which one's werent?

Lee said:
Were they included in canon of Scripture, absolutely. If I were to take single verses out of the Bible, songs, poems or parables, I would NOT base my theology on one alone.
First, I don't know how many times God has to say something before we ought to consider that it is true, once happens to be enough for me.

Lucky for those who refuse to believe God until he repeats himself, the bible continually testifies to the truth of Romans 3:11. Really, you dont' have to look too far. the Other quotations that Paul uses also testify to this truth.

Here is your list.

Psalm 53:2, Psalm 14:2-3, Isaiah 64:6, John 3 19-20
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
One can predestine without individually choosing who will be included in the final result.

For example:
The serpent on the pole was lifted up to heal those bitten by serpents.
(Numbers 21:8-9)
Where does the bible use the word predestined to describe this incident?
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Lee said:
I have already provided John 15 in context, and addressed the words of Jesus, "IF" and "ABIDE" and "KEEP". You choose to ignore them and go on with your eisegesis of Scripture to fit your doctrine.
Nope, I have no problem with the "if"s or the "abide"s or the "keep"s. The difference between the fire insurance OSAS and the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints bears heavily here.
Fire insurance OSAS says you are saved regardless of whether or not you abide, the perseverance of the saints says that the grace of God, through the indwelling Spirit, instructs us to say not to ungodliness and to live upright lives so that it can be said that our sanctification is as much by God's grace as our salvation is. God, starts the work of salvation in our lives, He is the one who finishes it. So have no problems whatsoever agreeing that those who don't abide, don't bear fruit. Where the Arminian and I disagree is who ultimately gets the credit for our abiding and how we get to a place spiritually where we are even able to abide.

Lee said:
Now, another question: Do you always get what you ask for from God in Jesus' Name?
Yes. Though tacking Jesus on the end of a prayer is not praying "in Jesus Name." When I come to God, submitting my will to His, asking for that which the Son of God has placed upon my heart to ask the Lord in order to honor my Lord, God grants those requests. Just because I pray something doesn't mean it is in the will of my Lord to grant it and when the answer is "no" I realize that those requests were not "in Jesus Name." Not sure why this is relevant though.

Lee said:
Do you love me in Christ Jesus as a brother even though I am Wesleyan and Holiness in doctrine instead of Reformed?
That's two questions.

:)

And yes.

Lee said:
Why is it that I do not feel the love from so many on this forum? In Wesleyan doctrine cogregations, I feel the love. I see the love in action. Most, not all, are loving, accepting, and forgiving, more so than most Reformed doctrine churches I have been in. It has been my experience that Reformed like to focus on other people's sins and sinfulness instead of the love of God in His sending His only begotten Son, Jesus to reconcile whoever will believe to Himself. My experience in Wesleyanism, and my goal for me, is to love with a pure love, a holy love, a non-judging love from God, to all as Jesus did.
Two thoughts.

First, whether or not you feel loved by reformers is a very poor standard for how you judge a doctrine. If you think about that for a minute you will see why. Many people have told me that they feel an incredible love from the Mormon church. Does that mean that orthodox Christianity is wrong and Mormonism is right?

Second, I've seen some pretty bitter, angry and mean Wesleyan's, Methodists and Nazarenes. Are you willing to judge your doctrine by their behavior?

Lee said:
Jesus knew the sins of all whom He encountered. He lovingly spoke to them about their situation and did not condemn them as the Pharisees did. In Reformed churches, I see Pharisees, not Jesus. Why is that?
Perhaps you are being judgmental, critical and probably judging your reformed brothers and sisters by a different standard than you judge yourself and your Wesleyan friends.

Before you move on to another topic, let me just say that our ability to dialog will be limited by a very big hurdle illustrated by the following.
Lee said:
In any case, back to you and your post: Yes, let's look back at John 15 in context, yet again...there are those 3 words I hi-lited again: IF, ABIDE, KEEP. Stumbling blocks for Reformed doctrine Christians that are OSAS believers, because "If you abide in me, If you keep my commandments" requires an active participation on the part of the believer in Christ. We must actively continue to believe in Christ Jesus to ABIDE in Him. They are Jesus' words, not Paul's. When Jesus and Paul disagree, I take Jesus at His words, because He is the One who saved me, not Paul. Paul was a Pharisee originally. He presents the Gospel of Jesus, not the Gospel of Paul. But he does so with some Pharisaic lenses at times. One can see the transition in Paul's letters from his first to his last. He became less Pharisaic in his letters as he matured in Christ Jesus. Kind of like we are all supposed to do as we cooperate with Holy Spirit in His work of sanctification of believers.......
You appear to take an position that allows for the scripture to be in error. Since I am an inerantist, we aren't really on the same page. I consider Paul's letters just as inspired as John account of Jesus' words.

So we need to clear this up, do you believe that entirety of the bible is inspired or do you pick and choose which scriptures you are willing to consider are God's word?
 

Totton Linnet

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One can predestine without individually choosing who will be included in the final result.

For example:
The serpent on the pole was lifted up to heal those bitten by serpents.
(Numbers 21:8-9)

It was predestined that whosoever looked upon it would be healed, but it was not predestined which individuals would do so.

This is not so...WHO He foreknew He also predestined, elected etc, we are predestined and elected because of WHO we are not because of what we are [all are sinners] we are depicted as the wheat as opposed to the tares, the Lord's sheep as opposed to those who were not His sheep ... I am well aware how proud it seems, but it is the true humility. To believe God, it is just so that I am His child....others are not.

People do not understand that it is the putting aside of these truths that lead to the works for salvation and to the belief that salvation can be lost. They are the doctrines which men formulate to fill the void when proper bible Predestiny and Election are put aside.

If you put aside the bible Predestiny and Election you have to find a reason why some are saved and others not. It is so simple to understand that we answer His call because we are His sheep, we always were...others are not. Abel was, Cain was not.

We were chosen before the world began.

I'm going to tell you something.

When you stop fighting God's plan He is able to open up the scriptures to show you things you never saw before...all the time you stop you ears up He cain't teach you.

Nobody rejects predestiny unto damnation as vehemently as I do...Predestiny is to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, Election is to be chosen for the praise of God's glorious grace...to be a blessing. That is God's plan for us, to bless the world, to bring glory to God. People running around damning everyone. There is no predestination to damnation but to judgement...damnation actually means judgement.

And God is going to judge everyone perfectly fairly and justly...with equity...there is more to this than you may think. Not everyone who is not going to heaven is going to hell...there is to be a new earth.

...the meek will inherit the world.

The point about the serpent lifted up is that it was only lifted up for the elect Jews.....the Egyptians were not invited to look upon the serpent or the Amalekites.
 

Totton Linnet

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Aw it is the bible doctrines of Predestiny and Election which tell us WHO we are, WHAT we are to be, WHAT we are to do...people are tossed to and fro upon every wind of doctrine by the skill of men if they do not have these doctrines...they are unsure, unassured, unblest and unjoyful.

Full embrace of these doctrines releases IN YOU the joy, the heart and the mouth to rejoice in God our Saviour...knowing that He only has done it, He only will have all the praise and glory.

The church would be a city set on a hill if she understood it.
 

Tambora

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One can predestine without individually choosing who will be included in the final result.

For example:
The serpent on the pole was lifted up to heal those bitten by serpents.
(Numbers 21:8-9)

It was predestined that whosoever looked upon it would be healed, but it was not predestined which individuals would do so.

Where does the bible use the word predestined to describe this incident?
Why would that particular exact word have to be used each time the message of something predestined is spoken of?

We know that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.
The particular exact word "predestined" does not have to be used to speak about that message.
 

Lee52

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Before you move on to another topic, let me just say that our ability to dialog will be limited by a very big hurdle illustrated by the following.

You appear to take an position that allows for the scripture to be in error. Since I am an inerantist, we aren't really on the same page. I consider Paul's letters just as inspired as John account of Jesus' words.

So we need to clear this up, do you believe that entirety of the bible is inspired or do you pick and choose which scriptures you are willing to consider are God's word?

Yes, the entire Bible's canon of Scripture is inspired. Inspired does not mean as in dictated to an administrative assistant or Court Reporter. Many of the Bible's Scripture are differences, some are literal, some are prophecy, some are metaphor. These differences are accepted by most ethical, honest, Biblical scholars. Proper exegesis requires that one not use metaphor inappropriately. Proper exegesis requires that one not use fulfilled prophecy as if it has not yet been fulfilled. For the most part, though not fully, I support the Eastern Orthodox views above the corrupted Western Roman views as being more in line with the Apostle and the Disciples. The Western Roman Church and offshoot Protestant West, have been substantially corrupted by Augustine of Hippo and his Platonic determinism human philosophy injected into Christ Jesus' Gospel in the 4th century, which was not in the Gospel, even in the West, prior to Augustine.

Blessings and thank you for an intelligent conversation where we can seek to glorify God and our Savior Jesus in the discussion.

Lee
 

Lee52

New member
This is not so...WHO He foreknew He also predestined, elected etc, we are predestined and elected because of WHO we are not because of what we are [all are sinners] we are depicted as the wheat as opposed to the tares, the Lord's sheep as opposed to those who were not His sheep ... I am well aware how proud it seems, but it is the true humility. To believe God, it is just so that I am His child....others are not.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!
Wrong!

God is not the respecter of persons under Calvinism. He predestined His elect before anybody, including Adam and Eve were on the scene, so that God could play eenie, meenie, minee mo on whom would be th elect and whom would be the non-elect, BEFORE time began. Who we are is of no interest to God, under pure, hyper-Calvinism.
 

Totton Linnet

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You are the expert in Calvin and hyper Calvin so you know.

See I told you the word of God bounces off you for it is He who says "who He foreknew...He also predestined" how can you preplan somebody's life who you don't know?

Paul says we were chosen in Christ before the world began...chosen means to make a deliberate choice so cannot possibly mean all are chosen.

According to the parable God sowed His wheat who are the children of the kingdom but the devil sowed the tares....God knows who are His children and who are the children of the evil one.

You will exhaust yourself dear brother trying to make tares into wheat, goats into sheep and snakes into doves. If you fail to take heed of the Lord's teaching it allows the devil to come along and smother your good work. Tire you out, sap your energy, disturb your roots [doctrines] spoil your crops [of souls ]
 

Tambora

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Election based on no choice by an individual does not exclude election based on choice by an individual.

Scripture records both.

As I mentioned earlier; those that chose to look upon the serpent on the pole would be healed.
So the election of those healed was based on their choice.

But the election of Jacob over his brother Esau was not based on any choice by Jacob or Esau.

God can "elect" on the basis of more than one premise.
To accept one premise over the other would not be accepting all of scripture as truth.
 
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