Theology Club: Predestination and freedom

[Nang]

Yes, but it not exclude that a choice was made by the individuals of Israel.

The "looking" was a result of believing the promise from God.

So, the "looking" is an act of faith.

And faith is given by God to those He chooses to heal.

So the gospel truths always end up giving all glory to God, rather than to men.

Nang

 

[Tambora]

The "looking" was a result of believing the promise from God.

Of course.

So, the "looking" is an act of faith.

Yep.

And faith is given by God to those He chooses to heal.

The serpent on the pole was available to all that were bitten.

Likewise the serpent on the pole was referenced in Jesus being lifted up on the cross.

If the serpent on the pole was only meant for certain individual Israelites, then why place it before all and tell all that if they would look they would be healed.

So the gospel truths always end up giving all glory to God, rather than men.

Of course. None of the bitten Israelites had a way of healing themselves if not for the offering God provided to all of them.

God Himself made the offering. Man chooses to accept or reject the offering.

 

[Nang]

If the serpent on the pole was only meant for certain individual Israelites, then why place it before all and tell all that if they would look they would be healed.

To demonstrate that not all would believe in God's healing.

Reprobation is an important fact and doctrine that cannot and should not be ignored.

None of the bitten Israelites had a way of healing themselves if not for the offering God provided to all of them.

God Himself made the offering. Man chooses to accept or reject the offering.

I totally agree.

However, I still say God enables a remnant of sinners' choice to believe, for without His grace and power, by nature ALL sinners would reject the provided offering.

John 3:3

 

[Totton Linnet]

The "looking" was a result of believing the promise from God.

So, the "looking" is an act of faith.

And faith is given by God to those He chooses to heal.

So the gospel truths always end up giving all glory to God, rather than to men.

Nang

Only the elect Jews were given the opportunity to look and be healed [indeed only the elect were being bitten by serpents for grumbling] but the unelect had nothing. Neither the chastisement or the healing.

Anakin and the Amalekites were not given the choice.

 

[Nang]

Only the elect Jews were given the opportunity to look and be healed [indeed only the elect were being bitten by serpents for grumbling] but the unelect had nothing. Neither the chastisement or the healing.

Anakin and the Amalekites were not given the choice.

Indeed.

There was nothing universal about the provision of the brass serpent; neither was there anything universal about Christ being lifted on the cross.

The other nations apart from Israel were not privy to this Godly provision of the brass serpent for healing, and multitudes of peoples have perished in their sins, without ever hearing about Jesus Christ dying on the cross.

Christ was the substitute offering provided by the triune powers of God, for an elect people, chosen to be healed by looking by faith to His Mediation and sacrifice. He was lifted up in death to die only for those given to Him to save.

It is the elect children that receive the call, and who are drawn to faith in the gospel message of Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lighthouse]

Where does the bible use the word predestined to describe this incident?

The word doesn't have to be used in order for such to be the case. Do you know what the word means?

We know that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

No we don't.

 

[Lee52]

Indeed.

There was nothing universal about the provision of the brass serpent; neither was there anything universal about Christ being lifted on the cross.

"Come to me ALL who are tired and heavy laden and I will give you rest for your souls." The word in Greek means all of humanity, not specific as in "all of a specific group". The same is true of John 3 throughout the entire Chapter. Neither are restricted to gender either.

The other nations apart from Israel were not privy to this Godly provision of the brass serpent for healing, and multitudes of peoples have perished in their sins, without ever hearing about Jesus Christ dying on the cross.

Paul's letter to the Romans covers that, as does his letter to the Ephesians. Jesus led captives out of Hades into Heaven. Those captives were the righteous dead souls of humans who died without the law and without salvation in Christ Jesus, as well as the righteous under the Law of the OT.

Christ was the substitute offering provided by the triune powers of God, for an elect people, chosen to be healed by looking by faith to His Mediation and sacrifice. He was lifted up in death to die only for those given to Him to save.

(sigh) Once again, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." John 3:14-15 ESV "whoever" in the Greek is all inclusive, not restrictive.

It is the elect children that receive the call, and who are drawn to faith in the gospel message of Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus seems to disagree with you here:
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:31-32 ESV And again, the Greek word is inclusive, not exclusive. It means, literally what it says: EVERYBODY gets drawn to Jesus. Not all are saved, but all are given the opportunity to be saved.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Now is the judgement of this world......I will draw all men unto Me.

Some are drawn unto salvation others unto condemnation.

Everyone may hear the Shepherd's voice but only His sheep will follow Him.

You may like it or you may not....

 

[Lee52]

Now is the judgement of this world......I will draw all men unto Me.

Some are drawn unto salvation others unto condemnation.

Everyone may hear the Shepherd's voice but only His sheep will follow Him.

You may like it or you may not....

Scripture verse(s) to back up your above premise?

 

[Nang]

"Come to me ALL who are tired and heavy laden and I will give you rest for your souls." The word in Greek means all of humanity, not specific as in "all of a specific group". The same is true of John 3 throughout the entire Chapter. Neither are restricted to gender either.



Paul's letter to the Romans covers that, as does his letter to the Ephesians. Jesus led captives out of Hades into Heaven. Those captives were the righteous dead souls of humans who died without the law and without salvation in Christ Jesus, as well as the righteous under the Law of the OT.



(sigh) Once again, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." John 3:14-15 ESV "whoever" in the Greek is all inclusive, not restrictive.



Jesus seems to disagree with you here:
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:31-32 ESV And again, the Greek word is inclusive, not exclusive. It means, literally what it says: EVERYBODY gets drawn to Jesus. Not all are saved, but all are given the opportunity to be saved.

Lee,

Since you are using John 12 to argue, you should read the rest of the chapter, particularly vss 37-41 that quotes Isaiah's revelation (Isaiah 6:9-10) that it is God who determines who will believe and who will not.

Nang

 

[Tambora]

Only the elect Jews were given the opportunity to look and be healed [indeed only the elect were being bitten by serpents for grumbling] but the unelect had nothing. Neither the chastisement or the healing.

Anakin and the Amalekites were not given the choice.

So true, this event only happened to Israel.
No other peoples/nations were elect but Israel.

Jesus says He was sent to no others but the lost sheep of Israel.
And yet He healed one that was not of elect Israel.
(Mat 15:24-28)

So while indeed elect Israel was the only ones involved in receive healing during the event of the serpent on the pole; healing itself was not reserved exclusively for the elect.
It was because of her faith (not because she was one of the elect) that this woman's daughter was healed.



I believe in election, because scripture teaches election.
Israel will be healed because of election. Not for their sakes, but for the sake of God's holy name that elected them and made promises to.

But I also believe one can receive healing by grace through faith apart from election, because scripture teaches that also.


I do not exclude either.

 

[Nang]

So true, this event only happened to Israel.
No other peoples/nations were elect but Israel.

Jesus says He was sent to no others but the lost sheep of Israel.
And yet He healed one that was not of elect Israel.
(Mat 15:24-28)

So while indeed elect Israel was the only ones involved in receive healing during the event of the serpent on the pole; healing itself was not reserved exclusively for the elect.
It was because of her faith (not because she was one of the elect) that this woman's daughter was healed.



I believe in election, because scripture teaches election.
Israel will be healed because of election. Not for their sakes, but for the sake of God's holy name that elected them and made promises to.

But I also believe one can receive healing by grace through faith apart from election, because scripture teaches that also.


I do not exclude either.

Election is revealed in 3 ways.

Nationally, through the setting apart by God of the people of Israel from all other nations. Isaiah 45:4

Spiritually, through the setting apart by God of angels and the redeemed individuals in the church of Jesus Christ from the fall of the world. I Timothy 5:21; Matthew 24:22, 31; II John 1, 13

And divinely, through the setting apart by God of His Son as Savior. Isaiah 42:1-4

I would differ that there is salvation for any outside of these chosen categories, for there is no hope of healing for those outside of faith of the Elect Son.

 

[Lighthouse]

We know that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

No we don't.

 

[Nang]

No we don't.

Yes we do!

Nang

 

[Tambora]

We know that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

No we don't.

OK.
I do.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes we do!

Nang

Prove it.

OK.
I do.

No you don't.

 

[Tambora]

1 Peter 1 KJV
(19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
(20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[Totton Linnet]

So true, this event only happened to Israel.
No other peoples/nations were elect but Israel.

Jesus says He was sent to no others but the lost sheep of Israel.
And yet He healed one that was not of elect Israel.
(Mat 15:24-28)

So while indeed elect Israel was the only ones involved in receive healing during the event of the serpent on the pole; healing itself was not reserved exclusively for the elect.
It was because of her faith (not because she was one of the elect) that this woman's daughter was healed.



I believe in election, because scripture teaches election.
Israel will be healed because of election. Not for their sakes, but for the sake of God's holy name that elected them and made promises to.

But I also believe one can receive healing by grace through faith apart from election, because scripture teaches that also.


I do not exclude either.

*
I want to tell you something my dear, the church has been stuck on this snag for so long [centuries] she can't seem to make any progress. Whatever side of the Predestiny Election divide people take they draw their arguments from the 16th century. What you say concerning healing is true.

I am saying something new but biblical.

People are not content to throw out Calvin with his double predestiny, they want to throw out predestiny and election altogether...this is a disaster.

We mustn't do it. We must persist with bible doctrines begging the Holy Spirit to keep shedding more light upon it....for CENTURIES bible doctrine was locked up, darkness reigned for a thousand years so far as the bible doctrine of salvation by grace through faith was concerned.

When we humble ourselves to accept bible truth THEN the Holy Spirit will expound and expand it.

SO come whatever may Predestiny and Election are true. Let everyone acknowledge it, let's not re-name it determinism and seek to tear it down.

But Predestination and Election never had to do with SALVATION per se, it never was the key to BLESSING except that the predestiny and election was always and is predestiny and election to BE a blessing and a blessing to the WHOLE WORLD.

Election started with Abraham and ran thus..."by Abraham will the families of the earth bless themselves." So it is predestiny and election that is God's instrument of blessing to the world.

Of course the elect ones must be saved, but this does not exclude salvation or blessing to everyone else. In fact we are elected to [the church] reach out and save and bless. If everyone believed that what a different church we would have. No more running around damning everything that moved...warning certainly.

We must surely see that Election passed on to Jacob [and Paul takes his doctrine from Jacob] but this by no means should lead us to suppose that Esau was not saved. We should not suppose Lot was not saved because Abraham was the Election.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Incidently I believe Calvin himself was an incalculable blessing to the church and to the world, just for the record since he gets so much flak. Europe under his leadership was heaven on earth to the godly during the 16th century. Geneva was a safe harbour for those fleeing the persecutors and it was there that the bible was translated for the first time for EVERYONE to read in their own tongue. Although I have never been led to study Calvin and although I vehemently oppose his double predestiny yet I salute him and give thanks for him.

 

[Lighthouse]

1 Peter 1 KJV
(19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
(20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That's not what you said. You said He was slain before the foundation of the world.