freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Jesus, the Jew......
Jesus, the Jew......
His presentation of Jesus is more of the 'offering' of Jesus own religious path which he interprets more in a purely Jewish traditional format with loyalty to the law and the prophets. If you are given the way and the laws of God,...you do not necessarily exalt a 'person' as the way, but respect the way of life that that prophet lived out before you, as an example. Otherwise, 'Jesus' could be made out to be as an 'idol' or 'god' of some sort (wont get into any con-fusing Christological issues here). Remember Jesus always pointed to the one True God as his Father, and our Father.
See the Gospel of Matthew,...it presents a pretty Jewish Jesus.
pj
Jesus, the Jew......
His presentation of Jesus is more of the 'offering' of Jesus own religious path which he interprets more in a purely Jewish traditional format with loyalty to the law and the prophets. If you are given the way and the laws of God,...you do not necessarily exalt a 'person' as the way, but respect the way of life that that prophet lived out before you, as an example. Otherwise, 'Jesus' could be made out to be as an 'idol' or 'god' of some sort (wont get into any con-fusing Christological issues here). Remember Jesus always pointed to the one True God as his Father, and our Father.
See the Gospel of Matthew,...it presents a pretty Jewish Jesus.
pj
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way 2 go
Well-known member
:nono:
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
it is eternal life for Christians
it is eternal punishment for the unrighteous
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
the unrighteous will continue spiritually dead in eternal punishment
Word based mystic
New member
yup correct and affirmed
what is eternal punishment???
the judgement is punishment. the punishment is permanent
What is the punishment??
death not life.
perish not imperishable
mortal not immortality
destruction not indestructible
forever or everlasting is defined within the age of
period of time.
messianic period
till the end of the age
NOT NEVER ENDING.
you change the word forever to never ending. INCORRECT.
You state the wicked shall live never ending INCORRECT
You claim the 2nd death is actually (life) just in a different fashion
INCORRECT
you claim the wages of sin is (life) just in a different fashion. INCORRECT
many change word meanings to accommodate the teaching of your fear based preachers.
forever/eternal = of the age, within the age of, period of time relating to the earth and its ending.
you redefine words to accommodate a doctrine
making hell death and the grave indestructible. making the soul of the wicked indestructible and imperishable.
exactly the opposite of eternal/permanent destruction.
((The eternal fire which is designed to destroy according to you is incapable of accomplishing it's purpose.))
yet here is an example of that fire
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"
((cease to be forever))
here is another example of what you ignore the fire will do
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who ((kill)) the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to ((destroy)) both (soul and body) in hell
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Well, I guess that will really show them.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Rev_20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
judgement is judgement
punishment is eternal
Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
so you "redefine words to accommodate a doctrine"
the words forever or everlasting get redefined by you
correct I will be in heaven forever ,never ending.
correct Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment
alive but dead
Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
someone should have told Jesus to tone it down
Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
so no eternal life for you.
that is you
Jesus did it not me
on this earth
Fear God, absolutely
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Ben Masada
New member
Actually there is another provision: To listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's the provision of Jesus himself in Luke 16:29-31. It is about the parable of the Richman and Lazarus. The Richman was in hell-fire asking that someone be sent to his family to warn them not to come to the same place. Jesus said that they had "Moses" and that they should listen to him. He meant the Law. Hence, "Moses" between quotation marks. That's the provision I adopt. By the way, there is one more provision but presented by the Catholic Church only; that there is salvation only in the Catholic church. That's from the "Summa Theologica" by Thomas Aquinas, a famous Catholic Theologian scholar.
Ben Masada
New member
Yes but, to reach Christians, the only way is through Jesus; although
they don't follow the true Jesus but the "Christ" of Paul which had nothing to do with Jesus.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Where do you get this from?
Jesus said that they will be destroyed in hell (Gehenna). There is no provision made for eternal life in hell being tortured alive. That is a very human (and sadistic) idea.
Word based mystic
New member
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
perish in greek is appollumi = to utterly destroy
as far as the definition of forever. it does not mean never ending
it is aion. period of time, till the end of the age.
please do your word studies in order to keep your doctrine correct
Jordan Fontenot
New member
I took a straight year of Greek on an academic level from a guy who got his Ph.D from Oxford, so please don't complain to me about not doing word studies. Very familiar with apollumi and aion. My problem with trying to fit aion into a context that is temporal is that it is used literally in the same context of the same verse to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment. So either they are both eternal or both temporal.
Interesting note, Apollumi is also used for the word "mar" as in to damage something severely. If you want to have arguments based on what words "could" mean in Greek then you will run into a lot of logistical issues.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Against the sentence of 'eternal punishment' or 'torment'
Against the sentence of 'eternal punishment' or 'torment'
Continuing from my rejection of ECT here, no matter what spin you put on the words, you still have to deal with the implications of a God who imposes 'eternal conscious torment', perpetual punishment, unending PAIN, endless SUFFERING upon his own offspring, for all eternity, to no END. This is vile, sadistic and unbecoming of any 'God', let alone a God of Love. Its more akin to what personalities such as satan, the devil or one of his cohorts would do, some personification of pure evil.
One could split hairs over terms/meanings, but the implications/conclusions within the proper context of the passages may vary depending on interpretation, but the ideals, morals, principles and ethic of what is true justice and mercy, mediated by divine love and wisdom MUST be integrated and involved in our consideration of how we understand and define any 'justification of eternal punishment',...since 'God' and his universal laws would be wholly fair, consistent, truly equitable.
Love would always uphold all avenues/opportunities for soul-salvation/deliverance, restoration/recovery, affording all means possible for such, as long as a soul has the 'ability' to repentance. God's will can never be for the 'eternal unending suffering, torment, pain' of any of his offspring, ever. That's insanity.
Against the sentence of 'eternal punishment' or 'torment'
Continuing from my rejection of ECT here, no matter what spin you put on the words, you still have to deal with the implications of a God who imposes 'eternal conscious torment', perpetual punishment, unending PAIN, endless SUFFERING upon his own offspring, for all eternity, to no END. This is vile, sadistic and unbecoming of any 'God', let alone a God of Love. Its more akin to what personalities such as satan, the devil or one of his cohorts would do, some personification of pure evil.
One could split hairs over terms/meanings, but the implications/conclusions within the proper context of the passages may vary depending on interpretation, but the ideals, morals, principles and ethic of what is true justice and mercy, mediated by divine love and wisdom MUST be integrated and involved in our consideration of how we understand and define any 'justification of eternal punishment',...since 'God' and his universal laws would be wholly fair, consistent, truly equitable.
Love would always uphold all avenues/opportunities for soul-salvation/deliverance, restoration/recovery, affording all means possible for such, as long as a soul has the 'ability' to repentance. God's will can never be for the 'eternal unending suffering, torment, pain' of any of his offspring, ever. That's insanity.
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Rev_20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
judgement is judgement
punishment is eternal
Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
so you "redefine words to accommodate a doctrine"
the words forever or everlasting get redefined by you
correct I will be in heaven forever ,never ending.
correct Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment
alive but dead
Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
someone should have told Jesus to tone it down
Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
so no eternal life for you.
that is you
Jesus did it not me
on this earth
especially folks under the Law -
atrol:
Jordan Fontenot
New member
First of all, you seem to be indicating that God must fit your ideal characteristics of morality in order to retain deity. In essence this argument can come down to (although I understand this is not what you are indenting to imply) God can't be god if he isn't the god you would be. Why do we as feeble-minded mortals think that we can understand and dictate the will of God as though we could fully understand it. He states clearly that His ways are not our ways. He is not a man. So just because someone's idea of love is rainbow's and butterflies everyday does not mean God must fulfill that quota. God is not only loving but holy, and when we do not respond appropriately to His holiness, He is not responsible for what happens to us; we are.
Which brings me to my second point. God does not sit on His throne and cast mounds of people into eternal punishment. As a matter of fact, one would argue that He is both responsible and not responsible for our fate. He is responsible in that He has given us the option between punishment or reward, however we are the one who chooses where we will go, not God. God showed us love by giving us a choice. And if you don't believe me then just look at Adam and Eve. What evil and vile God would "force" His creation to fall into a life of sin, eternally separating them from Him by creating a tree they were not to eat of? He didn't force them though. He told them the consequences and they chose for themselves. The consequences were enforced. God gives grace to those who chose it. The same goes for damnation.
Word based mystic
New member
wasn't talking to you but rather (way to go)
and on the word perish It's first and primary definition is to destroy utterly. Especially in affirmation to other scriptures that relate to destructible, perishable vs imperishable, life vs death,
wages of sin is death, etc.
Your side doesn't need to prove that Apollumi might not mean destruction. Your side needs to prove that Apollumi DOESN'T mean destruction, and you haven't done that.
The definition of aion doesn't help your case, since someone who has been destroyed, and remains destroyed forever has also been eternally punished. They are not part of the group that goes to eternal life, so they cannot spend their eternal life being tortured. They would need to be part of the group that has eternal life, and they aren't. Since they do not have eternal life, they will perish just as the Bible says.
exactly