God judges no man but has deferred judgment to the Son.
God judges no man but has deferred judgment to the Son.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Under that logic you have to prove that it DOESN'T mean "To Mar" Which you have not done...
Assuming that you decide to ignore those contextual issues which I have mentioned and decide to look for whatever alternative definitions or interpretations you can find to make your argument. Let's even assume you're right. Would God be just?
way 2 go
Well-known member
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
I like what Jordan said:
are they both eternal or both temporal ?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
its beyond a matter of 'justice'.......
its beyond a matter of 'justice'.......
I don't see it a matter of justice for God to detain souls in an endless state of eternal suffering or torment....to no end. - to no effect but endless agony. That's not just. Its insane.
A soul however that has embraced iniquity totally, and has made a final CHOICE to reject God (life/love), will suffer the consequence of such a deliberate choice, and the result is 'death'....in the total/final sense,....a disintegration of being. That 'being' has forfeited its life-potential and undergoes the disintegration of the second death, from which there is no return. This death nullifies/expunges that soul's conscious existence. It becomes no more, it is no longer a living entity or enlivened personality, it is re-absorbed back into God, the primal elements, the universal Spirit.
pj
its beyond a matter of 'justice'.......
I don't see it a matter of justice for God to detain souls in an endless state of eternal suffering or torment....to no end. - to no effect but endless agony. That's not just. Its insane.
A soul however that has embraced iniquity totally, and has made a final CHOICE to reject God (life/love), will suffer the consequence of such a deliberate choice, and the result is 'death'....in the total/final sense,....a disintegration of being. That 'being' has forfeited its life-potential and undergoes the disintegration of the second death, from which there is no return. This death nullifies/expunges that soul's conscious existence. It becomes no more, it is no longer a living entity or enlivened personality, it is re-absorbed back into God, the primal elements, the universal Spirit.
pj
Word based mystic
New member
ying yang balance. once again. goobley gock not scriptural
Speculation only.
if you want true contrast then look truly at scripture
for instance the righteous go into eternal life
the wicked are judged/damned eternally and the eternal punishment is (death).
so eternal life for the righteous vs
eternal destruction. permanent state not able to have life again no more resurrection possibility. no life.
you describe the wicked of having life eternally.
yet romans says romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
got that. death/destruction/perish
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who (((kill))) the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to (destroy) both (soul) and body {in hell}.
you change the meaning of punishment to (torture)
a little adding to scripture for your ect doctrine.
once again what is the punishment?????
It is obviously the below scriptures.
revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second (((death)))
matthew 10:28 kill, destroy.
romans 6:23 death.
ezekiel 28:18 cease to be forever.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you ((((will cease to be forever))))."'"
Word based mystic
New member
first off you will find the words eternal and forever as quite different than what most try to mold them into
(eternal) is related to an age or period of time relating to this earth and the age in which the earth exists
{aionios}
(perpetual) is also specifically pointing to the beginning of time/this earth till the end of the earth/time.
there will come a new heaven and earth which (righteousness) exists
all the old things have passed away. And death within the context of revelation 20 and 21 will be (no more)
never ending is a different concept. which relates to the Kingdom of God (NOT) the kingdom of darkness or any of it's minions or followers
(the kingdom of darkness does not out live the Kingdom of God).
That is why the new heaven and earth is described as having (righteousness) existing.
The first death is of the flesh. the 2nd death is of the things that are corruptible and things that shall pass away. The (wicked are corruptible and shall perish). appolumi to be utterly destroyed.
the torment shall exist until the very end of the age till all things pass away. Forever = aion ((till the end of the age or period of time)). NOT NEVER ENDING
Ezekiel 28:18-19 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will >>>>cease to be forever.<<<<"
All of the above is consistent with Gods justice/wrath and his mercy which endures forever.
even in his judgement there is mercy (an end to torture)
which has no purpose (that is never ending torment)
and is not worthy of a father
nor is it his original intent or desire for man.
see genesis 3:22
Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, >>>>and eat, and live forever<<<< "-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden,
eternal torment doctrine falls apart in the details and the main themes of scripture
as well as the fathers heart for his creation. Which is to destroy all corruptible things and bring about a new heaven and earth
in this we see Why the saints in heaven were weeping and crying and how Jesus wiped away every tear
Because old things have passed and their relatives and loved ones that are in hell have suffered the second death.
and all those who (never had a chance to hear the gospel) have an end.
(eternal) is related to an age or period of time relating to this earth and the age in which the earth exists
{aionios}
(perpetual) is also specifically pointing to the beginning of time/this earth till the end of the earth/time.
there will come a new heaven and earth which (righteousness) exists
all the old things have passed away. And death within the context of revelation 20 and 21 will be (no more)
never ending is a different concept. which relates to the Kingdom of God (NOT) the kingdom of darkness or any of it's minions or followers
(the kingdom of darkness does not out live the Kingdom of God).
That is why the new heaven and earth is described as having (righteousness) existing.
The first death is of the flesh. the 2nd death is of the things that are corruptible and things that shall pass away. The (wicked are corruptible and shall perish). appolumi to be utterly destroyed.
the torment shall exist until the very end of the age till all things pass away. Forever = aion ((till the end of the age or period of time)). NOT NEVER ENDING
Ezekiel 28:18-19 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will >>>>cease to be forever.<<<<"
All of the above is consistent with Gods justice/wrath and his mercy which endures forever.
even in his judgement there is mercy (an end to torture)
which has no purpose (that is never ending torment)
and is not worthy of a father
nor is it his original intent or desire for man.
see genesis 3:22
Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, >>>>and eat, and live forever<<<< "-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden,
eternal torment doctrine falls apart in the details and the main themes of scripture
as well as the fathers heart for his creation. Which is to destroy all corruptible things and bring about a new heaven and earth
in this we see Why the saints in heaven were weeping and crying and how Jesus wiped away every tear
Because old things have passed and their relatives and loved ones that are in hell have suffered the second death.
and all those who (never had a chance to hear the gospel) have an end.
Word based mystic
New member
psalm 1:6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish. appollumi to be utterly destroyed.
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and ((destroyed)) the wicked; you have blotted out their name (for ever and ever).
Psalm 140:10
May burning coals fall on them; may they be thrown into the fire, into miry pits, never to rise.
2 thess 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming
Whom the Lord shall consume . The word "consume" here - ἀναλώσει analōsei - means "to destroy;" The word would be applicable to any kind of destruction.
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and ((destroyed)) the wicked; you have blotted out their name (for ever and ever).
Psalm 140:10
May burning coals fall on them; may they be thrown into the fire, into miry pits, never to rise.
2 thess 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming
Whom the Lord shall consume . The word "consume" here - ἀναλώσει analōsei - means "to destroy;" The word would be applicable to any kind of destruction.
Absolutely.
God is just to give eternal life to those who put their faith in Him and He is just to not give eternal life to those who reject Him. Eternal life is a gift from God and He is just in giving this gift to whoever he wants to. He does not HAVE to give the gift of eternal life to anyone. We should be thankful, not vengeful.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Eternal life holds no punishment, just as eternal punishment (un-changing torment in absolute darkness, completely alone, burned by fire and brimstone constantly with worms eating one's flesh) holds no life.
Life: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change
Life: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change
Word based mystic
New member
death: umm. enough said. lol sorry had to zing ya.
eternal: from the beginning of earth and time to the end of this present earth and age. aion or aionios
punishment: to be sent to your room without food,
time out, go to jail do not pass go.
the soul and body killed or destroyed in hell matt 10:28
death the wages of sin.
also lucifers end which is described in ezekiel 28:18 (cease to be forever).
all of this comes at the end of ages, and as all things pass away. before the new heaven and earth.
Those who do not have eternal life, do not have eternal life. They cannot be tormented forever, because in order to exist forever they would need to have eternal life. They do not have eternal life, only those who have eternal life have eternal life.
way 2 go
Well-known member
your position is not scriptural or logical :dizzy:
you say eternal life ends at the earths ending
and eternal punishment ends before it begins
:burnlib:
the dead continue on in the lake of fire
spiritually dead just like they were here.
Mat_8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev_20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
What is the penalty for sin?
Jordan Fontenot
New member
But if all that happens to punish those who go against a Holy and notoriously vengeful God is that He simply puts them out of their misery before they can be punished, is that justice? Just a swift Coupe de Grace so as to avoid their punishment? Do you know God to do such a thing?
Word based mystic
New member
they are punished.
death is not a punishment?????
and an ultimate punishment????
judgement day pronounces the punishment
the punishment is eternal destruction
also to perish for someone who is not imperishable.
no more life. not eternal life
you are saying the punishment is eternal life. just located elsewhere.
once again what is the punishment
what is the wages of sin
You are right. It is rather stupid for someone to claim that being destroyed is not punishment. It is as if they think that having eternal life is worth nothing at all. They also have to completely ignore that the Bible specifically says that the wicked will be destroyed.
When did it become a good thing to be destroyed? That reasoning is just bizarre.
Word based mystic
New member
Word based mystic
New member
look at what happens to lucifer in
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever.)))
psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- like smoke they vanish away.
and here specifically
.
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.
punishment is death
not life
ignore the scriptures all you want to validate your never ending torment.
it is not the Fathers heart towards his created children
genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever
the Heavenly father does not desire those destined to ((perish)) to ((live)) in misery and corruption never ending.
nor is it the heart of the father to torture with no end in sight. your doctrine is sick....
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever.)))
psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- like smoke they vanish away.
and here specifically
.
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.
punishment is death
not life
ignore the scriptures all you want to validate your never ending torment.
it is not the Fathers heart towards his created children
genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever
the Heavenly father does not desire those destined to ((perish)) to ((live)) in misery and corruption never ending.
nor is it the heart of the father to torture with no end in sight. your doctrine is sick....
Cross Reference
New member
But, the soul of man cannot die. Had that been the end of Adam's transgression, in the literal sense, Adam and Eve would never have been ejected from the garden. There would have been no need to.
based on what?