Justification of Eternal Punishment

Caino

Caino

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jamie said:
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NKJV)

Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” (Matthew 4:8-9 NKJV)​
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How is it that the created could take the creator up on a mountain and offer to him what was already his?
 
jamie

jamie

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Caino said:
How is it that the created could take the creator up on a mountain and offer to him what was already his?
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Jesus explained to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36 KJV)

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. (Hebrews 2:5 KJV)​

The world to come is our world, not this world.
 
Caino

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jamie said:
Jesus explained to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36 KJV)

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. (Hebrews 2:5 KJV)​

The world to come is our world, not this world.
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"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you"

The kingdom of Jesus is spiritual and on this world, not OF this world. When the true gospel eventually subdues ALL the world and God is king in the hearts of the believer then we could say the kingdom has come to full fruition.....but it will be on this world.

All power and authority in heaven and on earth is now the Sons. He is unquestioned sovereign Lord over his own creation. Jesus does not share power with a Satan God. To teach that there is the Father, his Son, the spirit.... plus a Satan God is simply untrue. While it is accurate to say that as a high celestial administrator, Satan & company were able to cause a lot of confusion and spread the Atheist meme, he was self deluded to think that he could ever be a God.
 
jamie

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Caino said:
All power and authority in heaven and on earth is now the Sons. He is unquestioned sovereign Lord over his own creation.
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That has always been true, but Satan serves at the pleasure of Jesus Christ. Satan only has the power that we and Jesus give to him.
 
everready

everready

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Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God

Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God

MannyO said:
Have any of you heard of Cliff Knechtle? He's an apologetic pastor who visits college campuses, discussing theological issues with students. I agree with much of what he says - such as his arguments for the existence of God, and his arguments against moral relativism. Though much of what he teaches is intellectually sound, there's also much falseness that he espouses, such as the 'acceptance' of Jesus Christ, and everlasting Hell.

I was watching one of his videos the other day. In the video a person asks him about Hell and he responds with an analogy. Through the analogy Cliffe attempts to explain why unending Hell, is a just, valid and deserving punishment. His reasoning is that offences committed against higher authority figures deserve more severe punishments. Thus an offence committed against God - the highest authority - demands the most severe punishment.

Here is the video that contains Cliffe's analogy. It starts from 16.05, ending at 19:13:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlgI6oh7oM

Let me ask the following question, in response to Cliffe's analogy:

Why is that crimes comitted against higher authorities (e.g. police officer, president) should be deserving of harsher penalties or punishments?

Is it because society says so? If so, what makes society right?

I believe that Cliffe's analogy is faulty and incorrect. He seems to imply that the more authority a person has, the more valuable or worthy he or she is. But don't we, as humans, all have the same level of value? What is it about authority that gives a person more (perceived) value?

Isn't it unfair to say that the penalty for hitting the president should be greater than hitting a teacher? If I hit the president, why should the value of my penalty go up dramatically just because he has more authority? I believe that the penalty for hitting the president or hitting the chief of police or hitting a teacher, should be the same. All are humans and therefore have the same value. So the value of the punishment should be the same. It should unaffected by status, titles, authority, age, race, or any other such external factor. Our legal system(s) should be objective.

If a civilian who abuses an authority figure should receive a more severe punishment; should those in authority who commit an abusive crime also receive a more severe punishment? If the president hits a common civilian, should he be dealt with more severely, because of the authority he possesses?

Now, we know that the highest authority is God. When we 'slap God in the face' (as Cliffe puts it), offending Him, by breaking His Law, His solution is of course to punish us. This is so that we might learn from punishment. But if a person is forever being punished - via eternal hell - how will they ever reach the end goal, for which that punishment was intended? Even human authority figures grasp the concept of remedial punishment. How much more does God? In dealing with a rebellious child a parent might turn the child over, give a few slaps, and that's it. They don't perpetually slap their child. If wicked human beings (Matthew 7:11) don't even go to such torturous lengths, what makes Cliffe think that the good God (Luke 18:19) would perpetually punish His own creations? And not even just continuously punish them, but punish them in the most wicked of ways - roasting and burning in inextinguishable fire! The doctrine of Hell is not even punishment, it's abuse. Far be it for the loving God, who is Love, to abuse anyone. And to do so would essentially mean He'd be abusing Himself, because we are all, to some extent, extensions of Him.
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You might like this Manny one of the greatest sermons ever preached.

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758)
Enfield, Connecticut

July 8, 1741

Their foot shall slide in due time. Deuteronomy 32:35

In this verse is threatened the vengeance of God on the wicked unbelieving Israelites, who were God's visible people, and who lived under the means of grace; but who, notwithstanding all God's wonderful works towards them, remained (as vers 28.) void of counsel, having no understanding in them.

Under all the cultivations of heaven, they brought forth bitter and poisonous fruit; as in the two verses next preceding the text. -- The expression I have chosen for my text, their foot shall slide in due time, seems to imply the following things, relating to the punishment and destruction to which these wicked Israelites were exposed.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html


everready
 
Caino

Caino

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jamie said:
That has always been true, but Satan serves at the pleasure of Jesus Christ. Satan only has the power that we and Jesus give to him.
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The idea that the Father or the Son, or both, keep a Satan God on a short leash to do evil is pretty sick!
 
jamie

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Caino said:
The idea that the Father or the Son, or both, keep a Satan God on a short leash to do evil is pretty sick!
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It was Adam's choice not God's, but God will replace this age with the one to come. God respected Adam's decision.
 
OCTOBER23

OCTOBER23

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chrysostom,

I watched a few Catholic masses on Sunday TV

and I only saw about 8 people in the pews.

Where the heck are the rest of them.

We have had as much as a 1000 people attending every Saturday Sabbath.
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As far as higher Authorities goes -

GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS

AND SIN IS SIN NO MATTER WHAT OR WHO IT IS AGAINST.
 
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Ben Masada

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Justification of eternal punishment

Justification of eternal punishment

There is nothing eternal about man but death itself. So, let's live our lives the best we can because we will never have another chance.
 
Lon

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MannyO said:
And not even just continuously punish them, but punish them in the most wicked of ways - roasting and burning in inextinguishable fire! The doctrine of Hell is not even punishment, it's abuse. Far be it for the loving God, who is Love, to abuse anyone. And to do so would essentially mean He'd be abusing Himself, because we are all, to some extent, extensions of Him.
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Grace holds back the effects of sin, else we'd all be experiencing the detriment 100+ fold. I see 'hell' as a removal of that, that we get everything we've sown. I don't know what torments are in hell, but I do believe they are likely self-inflicted. God created the place, but I'm not sure if He constructed the flames. Sin isn't just 'not good.' Sin is torment and wicked. Stealing a piece of candy harms another. "It is just a piece of candy" is a lie. The shop owner may certainly forgive and forbear, but it was a wicked injury to gratify self at the cost to another without regard to his hurt or pain, no matter how small. That is why it is wicked. Hell, without the grace of God, is going to be horrible. It is us, left to ourselves, without God, and without reigns on our own sin condition. That, imho, will be hell: Just me, left alone so I don't harm others, by myself, no sleep, with just myself, stuck in my chosen condition, forever.
 
everready

everready

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Ben Masada said:
There is nothing eternal about man but death itself. So, let's live our lives the best we can because we will never have another chance.
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You can have eternal life in Christ.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

That way when judgment comes you'll be in good hands.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


everready
 
musterion

musterion

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MannyO said:
The words 'receive' and 'accept' are really quite different
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They are the same Greek word. Clicking the link I provided shows that and would have saved you this embarrassment.

This is what is insinuated by the doctrine of accepting Christ: that when it comes to God, we have free choice. I tell you, plain and simply: "No we don't!"
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Then your god is a liar for condemning people expressly for choosing to reject Christ when he never really gave them that choice. Luckily, though, that's not the God of the Bible. It's an idol.
 
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Ben Masada

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everready said:
1 - You can have eternal life in Christ.
2 - John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
3 - That way when judgment comes you'll be in good hands.
4 - Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

everready
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1 - Jesus died, for heaven's sake! How can the dead guarantee life to the living when they themselves don't have it?
2 - This is akin to séance, aka the belief that the dead are conscious.
3 - Do you know what is the meaning of delusion? That's it.
4 - That's according to the gospel of Paul and not Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus.
 
Caino

Caino

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Ben Masada said:
1 - Jesus died, for heaven's sake! How can the dead guarantee life to the living when they themselves don't have it?
2 - This is akin to séance, aka the belief that the dead are conscious.
3 - Do you know what is the meaning of delusion? That's it.
4 - That's according to the gospel of Paul and not Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus.
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Do you get the newspaper? Jesus resurrected a likeness of himself from the dead, the Jewish Messiah is still MIA and there is a Mosque built in top the Temple Mount.
 
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