those words are meant for folks similar to folks that are somewhat similar to you - but not exactly -
atrol:
those words are meant for folks similar to folks that are somewhat similar to you - but not exactly -
atrol:
Originally Posted by Word based mystic View Post
so now you excuse your accusations.
ouch ! - :help:
so now you excuse your accusations.
ouch ! - :help:
i see -
Hi wbm,
Sharing further from my previous commentary on ECT here,....lets note that the Vedic concept of the soul (atman) also assumes an 'eternal spirit-soul essence' as being of the nature of the 'soul', so that both ancient eastern/western religious schools have intuited or assumed some eternality or innate 'immortality' of the soul. From a purely spiritualist/gnostic POV....some kind of 'eternality' is granted the soul, although in the 'soul-death' or 'conditional immortality' view....its assumed the soul can indeed 'die', be extinguished/expunged, undergo some kind of 'dis-integration' where it is no longer a living personality, no long a living sentient being. The ancient Greek and Vedic view of the 'soul' would disagree with 'soul-death' in one way or another, as well as some other spiritualist schools.
The Urantia Papers however DOES teach that some souls choose 'death' (total, final and utter rejection of God), and become as if they never existed, BUT that all that truly had value in that soul's experience is never lost, but is re-incorporated back into the OverSoul, collective consciousness or Universal Spirit, and is added back into the over-all evolving totality of The All.
The Borg ?
awesome !
As we reflect on the 'condition' of the wicked, or the willfully unrepentant, one who is totally sold to iniquity to the degree that the 'fruit' of such 'iniquity' or its consequence is 'death',...then the end result of such is DEATH. Now we can debate on the definition of 'death' til the cows come home, just as we can on the word 'life',...but the 'second death' appears to be one where there is no resurrection possible, it is a final, complete disintegration of personality-consciousness. Only those who qualify and choose to be terminated by their own free will undergo an eternal death, if indeed God has granted such power to mortals for their own 'choosing'. This makes 'free will' as far as individual souls are concerned, more or less 'sovereign'....as far as personal destiny issues are concerned.
Uh Huh -
The fire of God would seem to consume all that is not like itself, and/or purify all innate latent divine potentials within the soul.
Yes, from the 'soul-death' and 'conditional immortality' view
Those who reject the gift of eternal life, the divine nature or Spirit of God, naturally do not participate in the nature, fruit or condition of such.
Indeed, since one wholly surrendered to Spirit, in communion with its presence and nature, becomes that. Spirit is One.
pj
View attachment 19846
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
You just may be assimilated......
You just may be assimilated......
Ever notice how the New Jerusalem is 'cubical', quite similar to a Borg cube? - we'll let that percolate a bit. We could explore this allegorically,...if you dare to stretch your theological wings.....
View attachment 19989
By and large in the universe, the law of karma rules as the arbiter of 'compensation',...these scales are lawful, measure for measure, although of course conditioned by various particulars. "What you sow, is what you reap". Eternal conscious torment does not pan out, unless one could forever put himself in a state of endless torment with no escape or possibility for repentance to effect a change in results. We've fleshed out the problems for 'ECT' in my former commentaries. Its a dead-end (a good pun for annihilationists).
But back to the Borg,...since you've been sharing this 'archetype' as a 'pictograph' of my more liberal eclectic world-view (a bit more cosmic), just think,.....all things/beings are ultimately 'assimilated' in 'God', who is the Universal One (apart from which nothing could exist). All things/beings originate from IT and return to IT, because IT....is All There IS.
pj
You just may be assimilated......
Ever notice how the New Jerusalem is 'cubical', quite similar to a Borg cube?
- we'll let that percolate a bit. We could explore this allegorically,...if you dare to stretch your theological wings.....View attachment 19989
By and large in the universe, the law of karma rules as the arbiter of 'compensation',...these scales are lawful, measure for measure, although of course conditioned by various particulars. "What you sow, is what you reap". Eternal conscious torment does not pan out, unless one could forever put himself in a state of endless torment with no escape or possibility for repentance to effect a change in results. We've fleshed out the problems for 'ECT' in my former commentaries. Its a dead-end (a good pun for annihilationists).
But back to the Borg,...since you've been sharing this 'archetype' as a 'pictograph' of my more liberal eclectic world-view (a bit more cosmic), just think,.....all things/beings are ultimately 'assimilated' in 'God', who is the Universal One (apart from which nothing could exist). All things/beings originate from IT and return to IT, because IT....is All There IS.
pj
Ever notice how the New Jerusalem is 'cubical', quite similar to a Borg cube?
View attachment 19989
Tetragonos is technically "four-cornered" though also rendered four-square:
Perhaps the man is the box with a mini tetragonos for his heart?
And on the outer breastplate of the priest the city of precious stone is tetragonos.
I know it is not on topic but how could I resist responding to what I did?
way 2 go
Well-known member
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Lets have at it...........
Lets have at it...........
Hi w2go,
That's an assumption you'd have to prove, if you'd like to discuss specifics. Otherwise, if you haven't read thru the entire thread, I recommend seeing at least my previous posts in the last 3 pages....for starters. I've challenged the ECT concept here (portal page to various commentary in an older thread).
I don't subscribe to doctrines that are illogical, heinous or insane...neither to a 'god' who enforces such.
Ok, lets take a look at this -
As we understand the law of karma...this certain instance does not disprove the law of karma necessarily, since it just so happens that not all cases of blindness indicate a sin of the individual or his parents (note this is 2 generations). - one's blindness could be caused by any number of factors, some 'karmic' and some not not so easy to identify. The case in this passage merely shows that divine providence afforded the occasion for Jesus to work a special miracle, so God's power could be witnessed.
Elsewhere in the scriptures and by the logic of universal laws.....there are consequences to all actions. There is cause/effect; action/re-action; whereby all souls reap what they sow. We can also call this the 'law of compensation'. Nothing evades or abrogates this law (action/consequence), except the higher law of love and forgiveness which absolves all sin. The James E. Padgett messages share a fairly reasonable explanation of the 'law of compensation' here.
To touch on the last statement you quote of mine,....I was saying that 'ECT' can only be inflicted upon someone as long as they are continually sinning and therefore suffering the results of such sin...shutting out the love/forgiveness/freedom of God, CHOOSING to reject salvation (basically choosing death, darkness, insanity). Casting souls forever in a lake of fire from which there is no relief or deliverance only to be tormented forever and ever (to no end or resolve) is insane. This pernicious doctrine of torture does more harm than good, misrepresenting God, perverting the laws of justice and mercy.
pj
Lets have at it...........
Hi w2go,
That's an assumption you'd have to prove, if you'd like to discuss specifics. Otherwise, if you haven't read thru the entire thread, I recommend seeing at least my previous posts in the last 3 pages....for starters. I've challenged the ECT concept here (portal page to various commentary in an older thread).
I don't subscribe to doctrines that are illogical, heinous or insane...neither to a 'god' who enforces such.
Ok, lets take a look at this -
As we understand the law of karma...this certain instance does not disprove the law of karma necessarily, since it just so happens that not all cases of blindness indicate a sin of the individual or his parents (note this is 2 generations). - one's blindness could be caused by any number of factors, some 'karmic' and some not not so easy to identify. The case in this passage merely shows that divine providence afforded the occasion for Jesus to work a special miracle, so God's power could be witnessed.
Elsewhere in the scriptures and by the logic of universal laws.....there are consequences to all actions. There is cause/effect; action/re-action; whereby all souls reap what they sow. We can also call this the 'law of compensation'. Nothing evades or abrogates this law (action/consequence), except the higher law of love and forgiveness which absolves all sin. The James E. Padgett messages share a fairly reasonable explanation of the 'law of compensation' here.
To touch on the last statement you quote of mine,....I was saying that 'ECT' can only be inflicted upon someone as long as they are continually sinning and therefore suffering the results of such sin...shutting out the love/forgiveness/freedom of God, CHOOSING to reject salvation (basically choosing death, darkness, insanity). Casting souls forever in a lake of fire from which there is no relief or deliverance only to be tormented forever and ever (to no end or resolve) is insane. This pernicious doctrine of torture does more harm than good, misrepresenting God, perverting the laws of justice and mercy.
pj
The Master is expounding from the Prophet Isaiah:
Isaiah 66:18-24 KJV Restored Name
66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto YHWH out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my set-apart mountain Jerusalem, saith YHWH, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of YHWH.
66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith YHWH.
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith YHWH, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith YHWH.
66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/isa66.htm
If you simply look at it in the Septuagint in comparison to the Greek in Mark you will see that although Mark 9:44 & 46 are disputed 9:48 is still definitely a quote from Isaiah 66:24. Likewise in the Isaiah passage from the Greek Septuagint one might take special note that the "carcasses of men" in Isaiah 66:24 are not "full bodies of carcasses", but rather body parts, like hands, feet, an evil eye that offends you, and so on and so on. In addition the word which is rendered "spectacle" in the Brenton Translation is also used for visions, (horasis-horasin, i.e. Acts 2:17) It is not only prophetic language but allegorical and parabolic in nature, (as usual with the prophets).
I quote Mark 9:48 in place of Mark 9:44 & 46 simply because it is not disputed:
Mark 9:48 KJV
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48 W/H 1881
48 ὅπου ὁ σκώληξ αὐτῶν οὐ τελευτᾷ καὶ τὸ πῦρ οὐ σβέννυται·
Esaias 66:24 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
24 And they shall go forth, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=43&page=66
Esaias 66:24 LXX-Septuagint
24 καὶ ἐξελεύσονται καὶ ὄψονται τὰ κῶλα τῶν ἀνθρώπων τῶν παραβεβηκότων ἐν ἐμοί· ὁ γὰρ σκώληξ αὐτῶν οὐ τελευτήσει, καὶ τὸ πῦρ αὐτῶν οὐ σβεσθήσεται, καὶ ἔσονται εἰς ὅρασιν πάσῃ σαρκί.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=43&page=66
"κῶλα" (kola) in the above is GSN#2966 "kolon" which is any limb of the body:
Original Strong's Ref. #2966
Romanized kolon
Pronounced ko'-lon
from the base of GSN2849; a limb of the body (as if lopped):
KJV--carcase.
And not only a limb but a limb that is as if lopped or chopped off! :crackup:
Therefore what the Master teaches is in accordance with this passage and in fact the will of the Father, which is to cut off evil from ourselves and mortify the deeds of the body as Paul also says, (Romans 8:13 KJV) and again, mortify your own "members" which are upon your own "earth", (Colossians 3:5) because every man has his "the Land" which he is set in charge over while the House Master is likened as to be away in a far journey, (Mark 13:34-37) and we are no more our own, and the eyes of our heavenly Father are upon His Land night and day from the beginning of the year unto the end of the year.
Therefore, in this allegorical light, one may properly understand the reasoning behind the statement concerning salt at the end of the passage in Mark:
Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Your presenting of your own body as a living sacrifice, which is your reasonable service, (Romans 12:1) means that since the teachings in Mark 9:43-50 and its companion passages are not literal body part cutting, hacking, and chopping, (lol) therefore also your "members" of your "household" will not literally die, and therefore their worm shall not die, (for Yakob also is called a worm, Isaiah 41:14) and the "fire" thereof shall likewise not be quenched; for every one shall be salted with fire, (an immersion) and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt, (preservative). And when the Master of the House comes he will bring with him those former "unruly members" of your household which you have been forced "to put to sleep", (otherwise why immerse for the dead, as Paul says, if those "members" of your household do not rise? verily they shall awaken before you and you will not precede them) and those members will finally serve the Master properly under your rule or shepherding, in your dominion-kingdom, when the Master returns and rewards you for your deeds and good works, (1 Thessalonians 4:1-18). It is all allegory and parable and has nothing to do with teaching eternal conscious torment of human beings. Perhaps when you go up to Yerushalaim of Above, and then return from your trip, perhaps then you will "see" the carcasses of those members of your household which have transgressed against the Father, (and what a terrible vision it will be). :crackup:
:sheep:
way 2 go
Well-known member
prove by what standard ?
seeing how this thread is not going anywhere you can redo some
are you seeking the truth ?
no past lives
Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
so are you saying so some bad things are karma
and so some bad things are not karma
westenized carma
btw : its called sin
souls reap what they sow hence the ECT
Ecc_3:16 Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness.
yah its terrible that Jesus came and died and rose from the
dead to save us from eternal conscious torment
:think:
if it was not eternal conscious torment
Jesus would not have had to die
we could have paid for our own sins
oatmeal
Well-known member
I generally do not look at videos. I did not watch yours.
I want to reply to what I read, what is been typed personally by the poster.
With that in mind, I choose to reply as such:
When we look at verses like Romans 6:23, "the wages of sin is death" we learn that the "eternal punishment" for sins is eternal death.
Those who believe receive the gift of eternal life.
Thus Cliffe's argument is foundationless.
For an unbiased look at each of the 3 doctrines concerning the final punishment, I recommend the book, "All You Want To Know About Hell" by Steve Gregg.
Here is a link to the publisher:
http://www.thomasnelson.com/all-you-want-to-know-about-hell
Here is a link to the publisher:
http://www.thomasnelson.com/all-you-want-to-know-about-hell
In terms of striking the President, he has an enormous amount of responsibility. He needs to be able to conduct the business of state. Therefore it is important that he be protected from arbitrary harm.
Certainly we all ought to be protected from arbitrary harm and that is what our "Peace Officers" are hired and trained to do. Punishment ought to be aimed at rehabilitation if at all possible.
But "eternal punishment"? That idea is incompatible with our belief in a loving God. I feel that the action on the Cross has guaranteed me remission of my sin. When I present myself before almighty God I have an advocate.
Certainly we all ought to be protected from arbitrary harm and that is what our "Peace Officers" are hired and trained to do. Punishment ought to be aimed at rehabilitation if at all possible.
But "eternal punishment"? That idea is incompatible with our belief in a loving God. I feel that the action on the Cross has guaranteed me remission of my sin. When I present myself before almighty God I have an advocate.
way 2 go
Well-known member
the bible says punishment ought to be a deterrent or restitution
so with that, the telling people that they are facing
eternal conscious torment should be a deterrent
Jesus has paid the restitution if you accept his salvation by faith
but no possibility of restitution once your dead
M
Man.0
Guest
He paid the 'restitution' for all people, not just those who 'accept his salvation by faith'.
If you go into a store and pay for 3 chairs, do you expect to receive only one of them?
way 2 go
Well-known member
your religion is other ?
salvation available to all.
Luk 19:26 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'"
we are not chairs , Jesus gave everyone a choice to love him back
Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Lets reconsider............
Lets reconsider............
It also says one reaps what they sow according to a perfect universal law, measure for measure. ( such is the law of compensation, or 'karma'). An eternal punishment to no end, is both illogical and insane.
Actually it may to be more of a deterrent towards such a 'god' who would impose such a rash and barbaric punishment, of endless torments with no possibility of relief, repentance or salvation.
So goes one belief about it. However, what proof do have to offer that 'God' could not offer a second chance or opportunities for repentance and salvation in the afterlife? I see no reason why souls could not be afforded an extension of space and time to re-turn to 'God'....if this God is truly Infinite LOVE and whose will is that all be saved. Would you put restraints or limits on infinite Love? Could you? Since Love is infinite,...you have no idea, assurance or conclusive evidence that a soul has NO chance of salvation after physical death. Afterlife commnunications, mediumship, NDE's prove otherwise....scientifically at that, since they can are truths continually repeated by consistent data. See: here
And quoting Heb. 9:27 doesn't prove no chance of salvation after death either, since a 'judgment' can be a 'life-review' which souls undergo inbetween incarnations...or just inbetween transitional-points in their journey in the spirit-worlds.
pj
Lets reconsider............
It also says one reaps what they sow according to a perfect universal law, measure for measure. ( such is the law of compensation, or 'karma'). An eternal punishment to no end, is both illogical and insane.
Actually it may to be more of a deterrent towards such a 'god' who would impose such a rash and barbaric punishment, of endless torments with no possibility of relief, repentance or salvation.
So goes one belief about it. However, what proof do have to offer that 'God' could not offer a second chance or opportunities for repentance and salvation in the afterlife? I see no reason why souls could not be afforded an extension of space and time to re-turn to 'God'....if this God is truly Infinite LOVE and whose will is that all be saved. Would you put restraints or limits on infinite Love? Could you? Since Love is infinite,...you have no idea, assurance or conclusive evidence that a soul has NO chance of salvation after physical death. Afterlife commnunications, mediumship, NDE's prove otherwise....scientifically at that, since they can are truths continually repeated by consistent data. See: here
And quoting Heb. 9:27 doesn't prove no chance of salvation after death either, since a 'judgment' can be a 'life-review' which souls undergo inbetween incarnations...or just inbetween transitional-points in their journey in the spirit-worlds.
pj
way 2 go
Well-known member
do we see justice all around us?
Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
:nono:
Rev_22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
forever and ever
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
never ever any resurrection from the second death
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Jesus has it salvation by faith which is why satan can not be redeemed
and why there is no second chance after death.