Justification of Eternal Punishment

[freelight]

A can of worms.................

A can of worms.................

you are going to insult me over a worm?

why lose your soul over a worm?

it is better to lose your worm

See how 'petty' a theological discussion can become?

Lets also not forget that the 'worm dieth not' is also a 'metaphor', so we have certain literary devices here that are not to be taken 'literally' since they are 'metaphors'.

The more important principles of 'justice' and 'mercy' are what are at stake here, in the appropriation of judgment...when divine wisdom and love govern such administrations, under divine will.

There is no justification for ECT, and any who 'believe' such are insane, since the concept is illogical, heinous and insane.

See:

The Defamtion of Love


~*~*~

One can quote as many 'scriptures' as they like, ....but when anything defies, distorts or challenges the integrity of universal truths and principles, and the wise administration of divine justice and mercy,...it cannot be accepted.

Any so called 'punishment' or 'consequences' to any action are wholly appropriate to the crime or sin committed, and in perfect measure of the karmic law of compensation that attends such acts. One only suffers until the consequences of any sin are exhausted or compensated for (until the last farthing is paid). ECT accomplished nothing, being antithetical to Life's purpose and Love's will.




pj

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

See how 'petty' a theological discussion can become?

Lets also not forget that the 'worm dieth not' is also a 'metaphor', so we have certain literary devices here that are not to be taken 'literally' since they are 'metaphors'.

The more important principles of 'justice' and 'mercy' are what are at stake here, in the appropriation of judgment...when divine wisdom and love govern such administrations, under divine will.

There is no justification for ECT, and any who 'believe' such are insane, since the concept is illogical, heinous and insane.

See:

The Defamtion of Love


~*~*~

One can quote as many 'scriptures' as they like, ....but when anything defies, distorts or challenges the integrity of universal truths and principles, and the wise administration of divine justice and mercy,...it cannot be accepted.

Any so called 'punishment' or 'consequences' to any action are wholly appropriate to the crime or sin committed, and in perfect measure of the karmic law of compensation that attends such acts. One only suffers until the consequences of any sin are exhausted or compensated for (until the last farthing is paid). ECT accomplished nothing, being antithetical to Life's purpose and Love's will.




pj

Did you ever get your UFO fixed? I heard a bunch of
your little green men friends were working on it?

 

[Cross Reference]

:up::third:

yeah for some reason maybe because i agreed with much of His earlier threads I was surprised to see the character attacks on those who disagreed with him.

Hopefully in the future He will grow in the fruits of the Spirit when doing dialogue here on TOL, and stop the name calling and unsubstantiated accusations such as liar or dishonest or condemner.

I wonder if that should be taken literally, hmmm???

 

[Word based mystic]

I wonder if that should be taken literally, hmmm???

ignore the main theme or subject.

it is what you have been doing lately.

you called me dishonest/liar

a condemner

and other unsubstantiated stupidity.

you did not give me examples or reason to your name calling.

you prevaricate so you don't have to acknowledge that you owe me an apology.

 

[Cross Reference]

ignore the main theme or subject.

it is what you have been doing lately.

you called me dishonest/liar

a condemner

and other unsubstantiated stupidity.

you did not give me examples or reason to your name calling.

you prevaricate so you don't have to acknowledge that you owe me an apology.

I am clinging to a small hope that you will trip over your own mis-guided thinking and come to your senses.

 

[Word based mystic]

I am clinging to a small hope that you will trip over your own mis-guided thinking and come to your senses.

(((and you do that by calling people names)))

(((accusing them of dishonesty and deception.))) All with no ((example)) of how i am lying.

you fail in much of the fruit of the Spirit here on TOL.
patience, kindness, gentleness, lovingkindness.
and rather promote false accusations and the justification of such.


I am Hoping you can ((see)) that you are obsessed with promoting greek myth and philosophy of making the wicked soul imperishable and indestructible.
As well as affirming that God the Father the great lover of all his created children would not bring destruction and death to diseased children but rather keep them in (LIFE) So that He can torture them never ending.

this view ECT, does not (COMPREHEND) the LOVE of the FATHER

 

[Cross Reference]

(((and you do that by calling people names)))

(((accusing them of dishonesty and deception.))) All with no ((example)) of how i am lying.

you fail in much of the fruit of the Spirit here on TOL.
patience, kindness, gentleness, lovingkindness.
and rather promote false accusations and the justification of such.


I am Hoping you can ((see)) that you are obsessed with promoting greek myth and philosophy of making the wicked soul imperishable and indestructible.
As well as affirming that God the Father the great lover of all his created children would not bring destruction and death to diseased children but rather keep them in (LIFE) So that He can torture them never ending.

this view ECT, does not (COMPREHEND) the LOVE of the FATHER

Your willful deception is exposed and you can't handle being scrutinized where it hurts. Now that you have been "smoked out" perhaps you might share with us of what religious 'stripe' you are?

 

[Word based mystic]

the wicked soul that is imperishable, indestructible, containing eternal life
is greek myth based and is supposition based, speculative and conjecture.

progressive logic based upon initial (assumptions).

or ECT is codified only by redefining the meaning and definition of core descriptive scriptures.

Life is only sustained in Christ.

eternal and never ending Life is only in Christ Jesus.
Regeneration or resurrection life is only in Christ Jesus.

The wicked do NOT retain or are NOT sustained in Christ/life. And He (is) the LIFE.

righteousness dwells in the new heaven and earth

being that the old heaven and earth have passed away (consumed) in FIRE.

am i speaking literally on FIRE. doesn't matter much. Fire in whatever fashion still destroys, consumes, kills.

The breath of His mouth will destroy His enemies.
((
God is an all consuming fire. Anything not of Spirit or spirit is consumed in his presence))

literal or not the result is still the same. (i don't believe it is literal.)
but the end result is still the same.
only the righteous can stand in His fire. All others are destroyed.

 

[Word based mystic]

Your willful deception is exposed and you can't handle being scrutinized where it hurts. Now that you have been "smoked out" perhaps you might share with us of what religious 'stripe' you are?

once again you excuse your false accusations without showing how I lie or am dishonest.

yes i believe scripture

ECT ignores much scripture and replaces it with speculation and greek philosophies and myth.

your best reply to scripture is attacking, labeling and false accusations of (Liar) with no example.

as to you trying to pigeon hole or put me in a (stripe)
sad way to reinforce your thin to non-existent (scriptural) doctrine.

not jehovah witness or 2nd day adventist. not catholic.

I have been born again 35 years. fellowshipped with many denominations.
usually with assembly of God.

Now and for the last 20 years fellowship with non-denominational community. but much involvement with missionaries.

Your ect is not only unconvincing but an insult to Gods Father Heart to His created children.
keeping a rabid dog alive in a cage so that you can torture it for its diseased behavior is not only sick but unlovely as well.

put a horse out of it's lame misery
destroy the rabid dog

why keep it alive for never ending torture.

sick.

 

[Cross Reference]

once again you excuse your false accusations without showing how I lie or am dishonest.

yes i believe scripture

ECT ignores much scripture and replaces it with speculation and greek philosophies and myth.

your best reply to scripture is attacking, labeling and false accusations of (Liar) with no example.

as to you trying to pigeon hole or put me in a (stripe)
sad way to reinforce your thin to non-existent (scriptural) doctrine.

not jehovah witness or 2nd day adventist. not catholic.

I have been born again 35 years. fellowshipped with many denominations.
usually with assembly of God.

Now and for the last 20 years fellowship with non-denominational community. but much involvement with missionaries.

Your ect is not only unconvincing but an insult to Gods Father Heart to His created children.
keeping a rabid dog alive in a cage so that you can torture it for its diseased behavior is not only sick but unlovely as well.

put a horse out of it's lame misery
destroy the rabid dog

why keep it alive for never ending torture.

sick.

Because it is NOT torture. It is 'never ending residency' where LOVE isn't; where the "worm diet not"..
But, I don't expect you will ever accept that because it runs contrary to your untoward religious bent..

 

[Word based mystic]

Because it is NOT torture. It is 'never ending residency' where LOVE isn't; where the "worm diet not"..
But, I don't expect you will ever accept that because it runs contrary to your untoward religious bent..

just like your greek myth of the indestructible wicked soul.

you have no foundation for wickedness and the wicked having never ending life.

the worm that dieth not does not make the wicked soul eternal.

what does the fire or worm do?? kills, destroys, consumes

you ignore much for your precious doctrine.

((never ending residency)) is speculation and supposition.

you ignore that heaven and earth passes away and is destroyed by fire. no residency for the wicked.

no eternal life for the wicked

you show no scripture that supports it.

only supposition which supposes the fire does not destroy the wicked or that the worm consuming something does not actually consume.


The wicked are not in Christ. duh.
and do not have eternal life.

only In Christ can you have eternal life.
only in Christ are you indestructible
only in Christ can the soul not die.
only in Christ is the soul imperishable.

 

[Word based mystic]

Because it is NOT torture. It is 'never ending residency' where LOVE isn't; where the "worm diet not"..
But, I don't expect you will ever accept that because it runs contrary to your untoward religious bent..

Revelation 20:14 death, hell and the grave thrown into the lake of fire.

what happened to death. ummm revelation 21:4 and there will no longer be any death;

consumed by the fire.
no more life.
wickedness does not exist in new heaven and earth. duh.
Old things have passed away.

all the wicked and immoral partake in the (((2nd death)))
not life

death is the punishment.

pretty simple.

As if God could not destroy the wicked soul.

your premise.

look matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to ((destroy both soul and body in hell)).

ignore

genesis 3:28he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden

God had no desire in His love for His created children to have them live never ending in a state of misery and sin separated from God.

So Christ came and for those that reject Christ and His LIFE
death is the punishment

so much you ignore

I would be embarrassed if I ignored all the scriptures ECT ignores.

And i definitely wouldn't interject supposition from greek myths of imperishable wicked soul status.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hey Freelight, if ya don't like my posts, get outta Dodge and
go to another Galaxy? Oh, and take your little green men with
ya!

 

[freelight]

Points...............

Points...............

just like your greek myth of the indestructible wicked soul.

you have no foundation for wickedness and the wicked having never ending life.

the worm that dieth not does not make the wicked soul eternal.

what does the fire or worm do?? kills, destroys, consumes

you ignore much for your precious doctrine.

Hi wbm,

Sharing further from my previous commentary on ECT here,....lets note that the Vedic concept of the soul (atman) also assumes an 'eternal spirit-soul essence' as being of the nature of the 'soul', so that both ancient eastern/western religious schools have intuited or assumed some eternality or innate 'immortality' of the soul. From a purely spiritualist/gnostic POV....some kind of 'eternality' is granted the soul, although in the 'soul-death' or 'conditional immortality' view....its assumed the soul can indeed 'die', be extinguished/expunged, undergo some kind of 'dis-integration' where it is no longer a living personality, no long a living sentient being. The ancient Greek and Vedic view of the 'soul' would disagree with 'soul-death' in one way or another, as well as some other spiritualist schools.

The Urantia Papers however DOES teach that some souls choose 'death' (total, final and utter rejection of God), and become as if they never existed, BUT that all that truly had value in that soul's experience is never lost, but is re-incorporated back into the OverSoul, collective consciousness or Universal Spirit, and is added back into the over-all evolving totality of The All. While a soul may choose the 'second death', the same soul can choose eternal life/immortality by doing God's will, and joining with Spirit. So there are various ways and different school-perspectives in exploring/dissecting the details involved in the 'process' of 'life' and 'death'.

((never ending residency)) is speculation and supposition.

you ignore that heaven and earth passes away and is destroyed by fire. no residency for the wicked.

no eternal life for the wicked

you show no scripture that supports it.

As we reflect on the 'condition' of the wicked, or the willfully unrepentant, one who is totally sold to iniquity to the degree that the 'fruit' of such 'iniquity' or its consequence is 'death',...then the end result of such is DEATH. Now we can debate on the definition of 'death' til the cows come home, just as we can on the word 'life',...but the 'second death' appears to be one where there is no resurrection possible, it is a final, complete disintegration of personality-consciousness. Only those who qualify and choose to be terminated by their own free will undergo an eternal death, if indeed God has granted such power to mortals for their own 'choosing'. This makes 'free will' as far as individual souls are concerned, more or less 'sovereign'....as far as personal destiny issues are concerned.

only supposition which supposes the fire does not destroy the wicked or that the worm consuming something does not actually consume.

The fire of God would seem to consume all that is not like itself, and/or purify all innate latent divine potentials within the soul.

The wicked are not in Christ. duh.
and do not have eternal life.

Yes, from the 'soul-death' and 'conditional immortality' view
Those who reject the gift of eternal life, the divine nature or Spirit of God, naturally do not participate in the nature, fruit or condition of such.

only In Christ can you have eternal life.
only in Christ are you indestructible
only in Christ can the soul not die.
only in Christ is the soul imperishable.

Indeed, since one wholly surrendered to Spirit, in communion with its presence and nature, becomes that. Spirit is One.




pj

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Urantia Papers however DOES teach that some souls choose 'death' (total, final and utter rejection of God), and become as if they never existed, BUT that all that truly had value in that soul's experience is never lost, but is re-incorporated back into the OverSoul, collective consciousness or Universal Spirit, and is added back into the over-all evolving totality of The All. While a soul may choose the 'second death', the same soul can choose eternal life/immortality by doing God's will, and joining with Spirit. So there are various ways and different school-perspectives in exploring/dissecting the details involved in the 'process' of 'life' and 'death'.




As we reflect on the 'condition' of the wicked, or the willfully unrepentant, one who is totally sold to iniquity to the degree that the 'fruit' of such 'iniquity' or its consequence is 'death',...then the end result of such is DEATH. Now we can debate on the definition of 'death' til the cows come home, just as we can on the word 'life',...but the 'second death' appears to be one where there is no resurrection possible, it is a final, complete disintegration of personality-consciousness. Only those who qualify and choose to be terminated by their own free will undergo an eternal death, if indeed God has granted such power to mortals for their own 'choosing'. This makes 'free will' as far as individual souls are concerned, more or less 'sovereign'....as far as personal destiny issues are concerned.

The "Urantia Book" garbage is known as a "UFO Cult!" Although,
those who are believers in it, will tell you different! It has its
beginnings in the mid-1950s. The same time Scientology came
about! It's made up of occult writings! They believe in supposed
alien entities (just like Scientology) who spoke though a chosen
human conduit while he was in a deep sleep. Supposedly, a
secretary stood by his bed and wrote down whatever the
entities said! They then placed the writings in a book entitled;
"The Urantia Book!"

 

[Cross Reference]

Revelation 20:14 death, hell and the grave thrown into the lake of fire.

what happened to death. ummm revelation 21:4 and there will no longer be any death;

consumed by the fire.
no more life.
wickedness does not exist in new heaven and earth. duh.
Old things have passed away.

all the wicked and immoral partake in the (((2nd death)))
not life

death is the punishment.

pretty simple.

As if God could not destroy the wicked soul.

your premise.

look matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to ((destroy both soul and body in hell)).

ignore

genesis 3:28he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden

God had no desire in His love for His created children to have them live never ending in a state of misery and sin separated from God.

So Christ came and for those that reject Christ and His LIFE
death is the punishment

so much you ignore

I would be embarrassed if I ignored all the scriptures ECT ignores.

And i definitely wouldn't interject supposition from greek myths of imperishable wicked soul status.

I believe our soul is intrinsically linked to the Soul of God, His eternal substance. To destroy our soul would be to destroy the Soul of God; His purposes set in Himself that man was created for. We were created in His image with a freewill [soul], to be completely like Him by first submitting our souls to Him that would initiate the process of sonship. The only way that could be of a freewill is for His soul and my soul to be in complete union, broken by Adam and now restored by the gift of the righteousness of Jesus Christ but only as the beginning step..

made man's soul and purposed its union in HIMSELF and HIMSELF in man's soul. Neither soul can die. Separation is said to be death because no sin is allowed to participate in the Divine purposes of God for His Soul in man, hence the soul that is cut off is cut off from His Life. Without Jesus Christ, nothing could ever have been reconciled for man to again take up the "Adoption process" interrupted by Adam's transgression. "The soul that sins shall 'die'" remains a factor even in the lives of new born Christians.

 

[Cross Reference]

just like your greek myth of the indestructible wicked soul.

you have no foundation for wickedness and the wicked having never ending life.

the worm that dieth not does not make the wicked soul eternal.

what does the fire or worm do?? kills, destroys, consumes

you ignore much for your precious doctrine.

((never ending residency)) is speculation and supposition.

you ignore that heaven and earth passes away and is destroyed by fire. no residency for the wicked.

no eternal life for the wicked

you show no scripture that supports it.

only supposition which supposes the fire does not destroy the wicked or that the worm consuming something does not actually consume.


The wicked are not in Christ. duh.
and do not have eternal life.

only In Christ can you have eternal life.
only in Christ are you indestructible
only in Christ can the soul not die.
only in Christ is the soul imperishable.

And you mis-use - spam up scripture with no understanding, to support your religious bent. That is how a cultist performs.

 

[freelight]

Lets 'serve' you again.......

Lets 'serve' you again.......

The "Urantia Book" garbage is known as a "UFO Cult!" Although,
those who are believers in it, will tell you different! It has its
beginnings in the mid-1950s. The same time Scientology came
about! It's made up of occult writings! They believe in supposed
alien entities (just like Scientology) who spoke though a chosen
human conduit while he was in a deep sleep. Supposedly, a
secretary stood by his bed and wrote down whatever the
entities said! They then placed the writings in a book entitled;
"The Urantia Book!"

Remember, you've been corrected here. You're ignorance befuddles you.

My mention of the UB concerning 'soul-death' is "on topic", since it explains a logical/rational view of souls that undergo 'disintegration' ('death'), and that nothing of divine value or experience is lost but continues as a part of the indwelling adjuster (that leaves the mind of the soul that dies) and augments/enhances the total experience of God the Supreme. In this view, the indwelling divine spirit (the 'thought-adjuster') keeps all of true value, contributing to the over-all Collective by way of re-integration. That soul-entity, that had immortality-potential, forfeits its life and undergoes the 'second death', from which there is no resurrection. To understand these points you'd have to study the papers yourself, since it might seem like speaking another language until you're familiar with 'terms', 'meanings' and proper 'context'.

If you'd like to contribute some original thoughts, opinions or points of view, if you have any on the subject, you're welcome to. Keep in the mind the subject of the thread here.



pj

 

[patrick jane]

The fire is more than a normal earthly fire. some will spiritualize certain scriptures to maintain their doctrine and then flip right around and assign earthly concepts/elements (only) to certain things like the (((eternal))) fire, in order to maintain their doctrine..

eternal fire in and of itself is not (only) natural.

When God Who is an all consuming fire assigns an spiritual attribute to the fire, or as I ((see)) IS the the consuming eternal fire that destroys the wicked with the (("whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"))

also isaiah 11:4 with the breath of his lips he ... at the force of his word, and one breath from his mouth will destroy the wicked.

is the eternal fire ((not capable)) of doing that which it was made to do?

Kill (matt 10:28), consume, destroy, perish, cause to cease to exist and cause to vanish away as smoke.

because the fire is eternal you then ((assume)) that which it is purposed and described as destroying then equates the wicked soul with eternal/indestructible life is sad assumptive suppositions and faulty.

eternal fire = eternal wicked soul that the fire can't consume or destroy.
ummm come on.

good post - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

NO! Not if you believe man's soul is made as God's own Soul, as it must be. Therefore, the death of you believe will happen to the wicked in the unquenchable fire, CANNOT ever happen. Therefore and for understanding of that fact, the word "destroy" must have another definition intended by Jesus to be understood by studying to show yourself approved by rightly dividing His WORD __ all of it.

Now, does the worn die or doesn't it??

:dizzy: