Justification of Eternal Punishment

[Man.0]

your religion is other ?

I selected 'other' because none of the other categories seemed to fit my current position.

If you go into a store and pay for 3 chairs, do you expect to receive only one of them?

we are not chairs , Jesus gave everyone a choice to love him back

We indeed aren't literal chairs, but the principle still applies. If you pay for something, are you not entitled to receving all of it? So if God paid with His life for all souls, does He not get to keep all of that which He paid for?

 

[Hawkins]

That ties to the question that whether the Bible indicates that Jesus is an optional choice.

Logically, what makes a message (a religion) a necessity to follow instead of an option is that the message is a warning about an extremely bad consequence.

If it's not about this extremely bad consequence, you don't need God, you don't need Jesus, you don't a religion at all. Just live whichever way you like the rest of your life, then it will all be done!

So put it the reversed way, if Jesus is not optional it implies that a bad consequence must have made Him (the salvation message from God) a necessity to follow.

Now why an immortal soul is needed in God's design perspective? Once a human died, his body will decay. Then no one ever knows who he is, not even the angels. Only God knows. "Only God knows" however won't be a valid open witnessing for his existence. A more permanent ID is needed by each human as a witnessing to show (say, to the angels) that he is the he from the beginning till the end.

Immortal soul is a Pharisaic concept dominated the Jews at Jesus time.

God on the other hand, is completely incompatible with sin, He's trying with His best effort right now to bear with our sins. This situation will end after the Judgment Day. He will be happy again after the Final Judgment with th relief that He needs to bear with human sins no more. He will since then live happily with the angels and the saved in an eternity we refer to as Heaven.

Now what happens to the unsaved? Their immortal souls will have to go another path. God will completely ignore their existence. This state is commonly referred to as the permanent separation from God.

What happens when humans (angels alike) are put in such a state? Since God is the only source of good in this universe, without God's presence and His guidance those in such a separation will finally go to an end where all of them will become the same as the devil himself.

God has ever sworn the oath that they can never enter His rest. There won't be any grace under any name to spare them from the situation. Unless the only Jesus is put to disgrace the second time. This however won't happen.

Finally, the unquenchable fire will come as a result.

 

[way 2 go]

We indeed aren't literal chairs, but the principle still applies. If you pay for something, are you not entitled to receving all of it? So if God paid with His life for all souls, does He not get to keep all of that which He paid for?

if you pay some other persons fine do you get ownership
of that person?

 

[Man.0]

if you pay some other persons fine do you get ownership
of that person?

Jesus Christ paid for our fine/debt by laying down His own life, so yes, He gets total and complete ownership. It was His life for ours. We have been bought, all of us.

'Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.' (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

 

[way 2 go]

Jesus Christ paid for our fine/debt by laying down His own life, so yes, He gets total and complete ownership. It was His life for ours. We have been bought, all of us.

'Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.' (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

scenario:
you have a friend, you have offered to pay his debt of $______
is his debt paid for if he does not accept your gift ?

 

[Timotheos]

scenario:
you have a friend, you have offered to pay his debt of $______
is his debt paid for if he does not accept your gift ?

Yes, If you paid his debt, his debt is paid.

 

[Man.0]

scenario:
you have a friend, you have offered to pay his debt of $______
is his debt paid for if he does not accept your gift ?

Firstly, who wouldn't want to have their debt paid? Who in prison wouldn't want to be set free? Who, if dead, wouldn't want to be made alive?

Secondly, the debt is paid, because my paying for it doesn't depend on his acceptance. You're assuming that he has the right to reject my gift in the first place. I think you're trying to make the arguement that a person has freewill, and thus can reject the gift of salvation. This is not so. As you will one day find out...

 

[daqq]

Paul says it pretty plainly here:

2 Corinthians 5:14 ASV (American Standard Version)
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;

And if one prefers the T/R then Young's Literal is the more accurate:

2 Corinthians 5:14 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
14. for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,

All died, the whole died, even every living soul in the sea died . . .
In that Great Day of Atonement at Olivet Golgotha Moriah . . .

 

[freelight]

More challenging literal interpretations.....

More challenging literal interpretations.....

do we see justice all around us?

Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

:nono:

There is some justice being done in the world, yes,...but in some cases it looks like there is no justice being satisfied,....however in this world of space and time, such delays in justice and manifestations of mercy may appear to be conditioned by various factors. I see ultimate justice being done in the world, and in the cosmos for that matter, because of the universal laws of karma woven into the fabric of existence itself, besides the heavenly courts. All actions have consequences, and so goes the law of compensation.

Also, if you're going to quote ole principles from the law of Moses, (eye for an eye)...well,...you know Jesus challenged those olden concepts,...see the sermon on the mount

Rev_22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

This verse still does not necessarily nullify the space or opportunity of repentance for those who are capable/able/willing to repent and RE-TURN to 'God'. There may be a 'point of no return' for those are wholly given over to iniquity, but it is God's will that all be saved. Such is the will of infinite LOVE,....it never changes its nature or desire. Such love knows no end.

forever and ever

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

never ever any resurrection from the second death

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

The above is an issue of language-translation but heavily promoted by literalists,...you have to read between the lines. Some events are dispensational or only for an 'age',...therefore...they may have an end, being for an 'indefinite' period of time. The book of Revelation is cryptic, allegorical, symbolic, which is why some early Christians did not think it even belonged in the NT canon. When people start to take things 'literally' in it, problems arise. - especially the 'eternal torture' folks...they love the book.

We might also note the two different views of ECT (eternal conscious torment) and 'soul-death'. In view of the 'second-death',....the first school assumes souls are consciously tormented/punished for all eternity, in the latter camp...the soul truly DIES, is 'dis-integrated',...it is expunged from existence, as if it never was. Actually the latter camp is more merciful, since there is no 'eternal torture'. In this light, the 'soul-death' camp has more going for it,...asides from some interesting metaphysical details on the the soul's dissolution back into the primal elements and back into the OverSoul of Creation.

Jesus has it salvation by faith which is why satan can not be redeemed
and why there is no second chance after death.

Sounds pretty dogmatic. There are scores of records and evidences that show souls do continue on after physical death, and there are second chances, because God's love is INFINITE. - now whether some souls choose to totally or finally reject God's love and enter a condition of no return (beyond repentance)...is something only the higher tribunals in heaven can decide or judge upon. Love will afford however whatever space and time is needed to effect a change of mind(repentance) and return to 'God'....as long as the soul is still capable/able to make a choice to return to 'God', - this is important.

~*~*~

Against ECT here.




pj

 

[daqq]

Also, if you're going to quote ole principles from the law of Moses, (eye for an eye)...well,...you know Jesus challenged those olden concepts,...see the sermon on the mount

Actually I was just speaking of such things by the Testimony of Yeshua on the previous page. It is all in parables, allegories, and idiomatic language. He did not challenge the principles of Moshe but rather correctly expounded them while challenging the interpretations of the principles of Moshe as interpreted by the Pharisees, Sadducs, and Scribes of that time, (who misunderstood the principles of Moshe and therefore misapplied them). An "eye for an eye" is not done away but was rather only misapplied by the rulers of the time. Those things continue to be critical to our understanding because they concern "evil shepherds", (devils and their doctrines) which will choke the seed of the Word from us if we do not choke them out first. We are to show them no mercy: soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. If your right eye offends you, and is always wandering off like a nomad desert wanderer, always straying away toward unsightly things which you know you should not be putting before your eyes, then pluck him out and cast him out of your Land. If your right hand offends you, always putting something to your mouth that you know you should not be drinking or smoking, then cut him off and cast him out of your Land. If your foot offends you, and always running swiftly into mischief, cut him off and cast him out of your Land: well, you know the rest, but we are to show them no mercy in our Land, (every man has his own Land which belongs to the Creator; if we have a Creator then we are indeed property). Soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, cut them off and cast them out of your Land, for YHWH has said, Behold, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, who will not visit those that are cut off, neither will seek those that are scattered, nor heal that which is broken, nor feed that which is sound: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that abandons the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened! For the lamp-light of the inside of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be single-focused, your whole body shall be full of light. But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is the darkness! Therefore divide your soul into portions, chop! chop! and that which is dying let die, and render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar, and render unto Elohim that which belongs to Elohim.

 

[way 2 go]

Yes, If you paid his debt, his debt is paid.

has to have a transaction to be complete

 

[glorydaz]

Firstly, who wouldn't want to have their debt paid? Who in prison wouldn't want to be set free? Who, if dead, wouldn't want to be made alive?

Secondly, the debt is paid, because my paying for it doesn't depend on his acceptance. You're assuming that he has the right to reject my gift in the first place. I think you're trying to make the arguement that a person has freewill, and thus can reject the gift of salvation. This is not so. As you will one day find out...

We were all locked in a prison of sin. What our Lord did was unlock the prison door. Some will sit in prison, not really believing the door is open and they can walk out. They will die in their sin while the door stands wide open. Sad that!

 

[glorydaz]

has to have a transaction to be complete

Yep, they have to walk out that door...no one will drag them.

 

[aikido7]

Have any of you heard of Cliff Knechtle? He's an apologetic pastor who visits college campuses, discussing theological issues with students. I agree with much of what he says - such as his arguments for the existence of God, and his arguments against moral relativism. Though much of what he teaches is intellectually sound, there's also much falseness that he espouses, such as the 'acceptance' of Jesus Christ, and everlasting Hell.

I was watching one of his videos the other day. In the video a person asks him about Hell and he responds with an analogy. Through the analogy Cliffe attempts to explain why unending Hell, is a just, valid and deserving punishment. His reasoning is that offences committed against higher authority figures deserve more severe punishments. Thus an offence committed against God - the highest authority - demands the most severe punishment.

Here is the video that contains Cliffe's analogy. It starts from 16.05, ending at 19:13:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlgI6oh7oM

Let me ask the following question, in response to Cliffe's analogy:

Why is that crimes comitted against higher authorities (e.g. police officer, president) should be deserving of harsher penalties or punishments?

Is it because society says so? If so, what makes society right?

I believe that Cliffe's analogy is faulty and incorrect. He seems to imply that the more authority a person has, the more valuable or worthy he or she is. But don't we, as humans, all have the same level of value? What is it about authority that gives a person more (perceived) value?

Isn't it unfair to say that the penalty for hitting the president should be greater than hitting a teacher? If I hit the president, why should the value of my penalty go up dramatically just because he has more authority? I believe that the penalty for hitting the president or hitting the chief of police or hitting a teacher, should be the same. All are humans and therefore have the same value. So the value of the punishment should be the same. It should unaffected by status, titles, authority, age, race, or any other such external factor. Our legal system(s) should be objective.

If a civilian who abuses an authority figure should receive a more severe punishment; should those in authority who commit an abusive crime also receive a more severe punishment? If the president hits a common civilian, should he be dealt with more severely, because of the authority he possesses?

Now, we know that the highest authority is God. When we 'slap God in the face' (as Cliffe puts it), offending Him, by breaking His Law, His solution is of course to punish us. This is so that we might learn from punishment. But if a person is forever being punished - via eternal hell - how will they ever reach the end goal, for which that punishment was intended? Even human authority figures grasp the concept of remedial punishment. How much more does God? In dealing with a rebellious child a parent might turn the child over, give a few slaps, and that's it. They don't perpetually slap their child. If wicked human beings (Matthew 7:11) don't even go to such torturous lengths, what makes Cliffe think that the good God (Luke 18:19) would perpetually punish His own creations? And not even just continuously punish them, but punish them in the most wicked of ways - roasting and burning in inextinguishable fire! The doctrine of Hell is not even punishment, it's abuse. Far be it for the loving God, who is Love, to abuse anyone. And to do so would essentially mean He'd be abusing Himself, because we are all, to some extent, extensions of Him.

The God of Jesus does not send people to hell. And that same God does not require blood sacrifices for sin.

Only repentance and forgiveness of others. Forgiveness is reciprocal. To the extent we forgive others, then we ourselves are forgiven. It's all about grace. And if there are somehow a set of requirements needed, then you are no longer talking about grace.

 

[way 2 go]

Firstly, who wouldn't want to have their debt paid?

People who are ignoring their debt

Who in prison wouldn't want to be set free?

depends on the prison Mat 19:24

Who, if dead, wouldn't want to be made alive?

Jesus answer of this is
Joh_3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Secondly, the debt is paid, because my paying for it doesn't depend on his acceptance.

yes it does depend on his acceptance

You're assuming that he has the right to reject my gift in the first place. I think you're trying to make the arguement that a person has freewill, and thus can reject the gift of salvation. This is not so. As you will one day find out...

he has the freedom to reject your gift and to pay the consequences himself

We have always had freewill God gave Adam & Eve the tree of knowledge of good and evil and told them not to eat of it.
Adam & Eve used their free will to disobey and we are all living with
the consequences of that to this day.

 

[glorydaz]

The God of Jesus does not send people to hell. And that same God does not require blood sacrifices for sin.

He became flesh and paid the price HIMSELF. Emanuel. God with us.

 

[way 2 go]

He became flesh and paid the price HIMSELF. Emanuel. God with us.

:up:

Jesus paid because of it being eternal conscious torment
that we could never pay

 

[patrick jane]

:up:

Jesus paid because of it being eternal conscious torment
that we could never pay

Amen -

 

[aikido7]

He became flesh and paid the price HIMSELF. Emanuel. God with us.

Theology, not history.

Being "ransomed" for sin means a payment made to free someone in captivity. And Jesus himself did not believe in any sort of blood sacrifice for sin. He saw a God of mercy that needed repentance, not a torturous spilling of blood. The Lord's Prayer and Jesus' quote from Hosea ("I desire mercy, not sacrifice") bear this out.

And, of course, his attack on the Jerusalem Temple is further proof of his relationship to a God of mercy and contrition. Since all four gospels mention this incident, it obviously goes back to a real historical memory.

 

[freelight]

Other records of Jesus being against 'blood-sacrifice'

Other records of Jesus being against 'blood-sacrifice'

Theology, not history.

Being "ransomed" for sin means a payment made to free someone in captivity. And Jesus himself did not believe in any sort of blood sacrifice for sin. He saw a God of mercy that needed repentance, not a torturous spilling of blood. The Lord's Prayer and Jesus' quote from Hosea ("I desire mercy, not sacrifice") bear this out.

And, of course, his attack on the Jerusalem Temple is further proof of his relationship to a God of mercy and contrition. Since all four gospels mention this incident, it obviously goes back to a real historical memory.

We covered all this and more on a former thread of mine titled "Atonement without blood" - for more on 'blood-atonement' go here (in the UB thread).

Also the more Essene/Ebionite/Nazirene version of Jesus tends towards a humane, even more vegetarian based gospel, against blood-sacrifice (flesh eating) and cruelty in all forms, ever emphasizing the principle of forgiveness thru repentance, return to truth and right living. This is what is essential,...not the slaughter of innocent animals (let alone humans) which does not necessarily change one's conscience, neither does such guarantee 'salvation'.

1.Yeshua was teaching His disciples in the outer court of the temple and one of them said to Him, "Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offerings of the laws take away sin?"

2.And Yeshua answered, "No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin. For how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation."

3."The priests indeed receive such offerings as a reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against (1997 "that which they believe to be) the Law of Moses; but for sins against the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment."

4.Is it not written in the prophets, "Put your blood sacrifices to your burnt offerings, and away with them, and cease from the eating flesh. I did not speak to your fathers nor commanded them, concerning these things, when I brought them out of Egypt. But this thing I commanded saying,

5."Obey my voice and walk in the ways that I have commanded you, and you will be my people, and it shall be well with you. But they did not listen, nor inclined their ear."

6."And what doth the eternal command you, but to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God? Is it not written that in the beginning God ordained the fruits of the trees and the seeds and the herbs to be food for all flesh?"

7."But they have made the house of prayer a den of thieves, and for the oblation with incense, they have polluted my altars with blood, and eaten of the flesh of the slain."

8."But I say to you, shed no innocent blood nor eat flesh. Walk upright, love mercy, and do justly, and your days shall be long in the land."

9."The corn that grows from the earth with the other grain, is it not transmuted by the spirit into my flesh? The grapes of the vineyard, with the other fruits, are they not transmuted by the spirit into my blood? Let these, with your bodies and souls be your memorial to the eternal."

10."In these is the presence of God manifest as the substance and as the life of the world. Of these will you eat and drink for the remission of sins, and for eternal life, to all who obey my words."


- Gospel of the Nazarienes, ch. 33

pj