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Greek, schmeek. Read whatever copy that best supports any spiritual bent. One will always be there, somewhere.
Define: "unquenchable"
Greek, schmeek. Read whatever copy that best supports any spiritual bent. One will always be there, somewhere.
Define: "unquenchable"
Word based mystic
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once again the fire, may be unquenchable but that does not make the souls indestructible or imperishable.
the fire is of the substance of God being eternal.
the wicked do not have (eternal) life but are destroyed.
God is an all consuming fire. So are you implying He is carnal and destructible so His own fire can consume himself constantly.
This is a Spiritual truth.
if the eternal flame was only material in nature it would end after the old heaven and earth were burned up and destroyed.
it would have ceased due to the hay and stubble being consumed.
no more fuel.
your implied question is making it a natural flame.
not a supernatural impartation of Gods eternal substance.
Gods eternal flame is not reliant on earthly substance to (continue)
wicked are consumed and cease to be forever ezekiel 28
Word based mystic
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Gods love is unquenchable.. many waters cannot quench it. ((simile of fire.))
For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
the substance of God never ends
and being in Christs Kingdom allows us to continue
For He is the life John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
the substance of God never ends
and being in Christs Kingdom allows us to continue
For He is the life John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
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Whatever. We're done.
Word based mystic
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The reason why i am so (OBSTINATE) in this matter is because.
The view that God is a never ending torturer with no end in sight for his created children is opposite to His fatherly love.
psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds
even in his judgement and punishment there is kindness and an end to torment, the end of such misery is kindness in itself.
If you have a rabid dog you kill, destroy, cause it to perish.
you do not allow it to live eternally so it can influence or spread it's disease.
punishment is a fathers job and is quite different than never ending torture
torture with no end is in no way a character of Gods never ending father love.
The view that God is a never ending torturer with no end in sight for his created children is opposite to His fatherly love.
psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds
even in his judgement and punishment there is kindness and an end to torment, the end of such misery is kindness in itself.
If you have a rabid dog you kill, destroy, cause it to perish.
you do not allow it to live eternally so it can influence or spread it's disease.
punishment is a fathers job and is quite different than never ending torture
torture with no end is in no way a character of Gods never ending father love.
I agree, and since the Bible SPECIFICALLY says that the wicked will be destroyed and NEVER ONCE says that the wicked will have eternal consciousness in hell being tormented or tortured alive for all eternity, I have to believe that the wicked will be destroyed and they will not inherit eternal life for the sole purpose of pointless torture.
everready
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nikolai_42
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Punishment is justice...but what debt do we owe God that we are capable of paying?
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Matthew 5:23-26
Isn't this what is being referenced in Matthew 18:21-35? The ending to that passage is rather ominous...
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 18:34-35
Word based mystic
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yes exactly
i use those scriptures to relate that God is both just and that His punishment has an end. to the very end, to the utmost of the infraction.
and the end of the most serious punishment is death/destruction/to perish/kill
matthew 10:28
how much more serious could that be.
we are either purified as the righteous by fire for eternal life
or we are destroyed by fire and perish.
who shall be able to live in the consuming fire? the righteous.
I have not found any convincing argument that the wicked soul is indestructible, imperishable or does not suffer the 2nd (death).
wages of sin is death.
psalm 92:7 That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed ((forevermore)).
Word based mystic
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you are not keeping up with the discussion.
that point is well affirmed in scripture and our discussions.
Hell was made for the devil and his angels
but
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
affirms that men will be cast into hell and the eternal fire will utterly destroy death, hell and the grave.
death will be no more
psalm 92:7 That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed (((forevermore))).
everready
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Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
everready
Word based mystic
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like i said you are not keeping up with the discussion.
what is the wages of sin?
what is the punishment and how long will it end to.
the punishment is death and while the wicked are being destroyed the smoke of their destruction shall be seen or heard till forever.
forever= aion to the end of the age, period, messianic age, related to the earth.
a new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells is what is coming and former things and death itself as well as the wicked perish and are no more.
everready
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You mean keeping up with your beliefs, everlasting is everlasting eternal is eternal.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
everready
nikolai_42
Well-known member
The question in my mind is how can any man ever pay back God for all his sins? And since Jesus doesn't speak in terms of termination of existence, the thought of retribution is rather a frightening one because we know what we deserve. I understand the argument that death is just nothingness, but there is tension in scripture (if you just go on the English KJV words, anyway) that accepts as a given that these wrongs must be repaid...in full. And if not in Christ, then the individual has to answer for each one. If one sin is deserving of death, then proper justice requires multiple deaths for multiple sins. Even if there is an eventual end, the prospect of justice at God's hands is at once unanswerable and terrifying :
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11
This, to me, sounds nothing like mere end of existence.
Word based mystic
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Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“
Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”
Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”
John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”
Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
permanent state destroyed.
not eternal life in hell.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire
what happens then.
isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time,
1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person
2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”
thus the soul does not live eternally in hell.
Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”
Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”
John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”
Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
permanent state destroyed.
not eternal life in hell.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire
what happens then.
isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time,
1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person
2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”
thus the soul does not live eternally in hell.
Word based mystic
New member
so the wages of sin is (not) death???
and for those whose sin is greater they do not last longer in the fire of torment
rather those that sinned greater get the same degree of torment than those that sinned lesser??
i could show you so many more scriptures that show their is no life eternal for the wicked and
that their end is to be destroyed, perish, kill, consume, death.
forever = aion till the end of the age, period of time, messianic age
NOT never ending
only GODS kingdom and those in Christ have no end or are described as never ending.
everready
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You forgot one.
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
everready
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nikolai_42
Well-known member
This is the problem with founding a position on a single word or verse. It doesn't necessarily convey the breadth intended. For example, when we were dead in trespasses and sin, were we actually dead in the sense you are reading here? Are the "filthy dreamers" of Jude 1:12 "twice dead" and therefore not in existence?
I know what Jesus says about fewer stripes. And I know you probably think that it is impossible to have degrees of punishment if all are in the same fire. The fire spoken of is far more than just fire as we understand it - this is just an analogy for our understanding (seeing through a glass darkly and all that). I have no problem believing that the punishments God metes out are utterly just.
But if someone is actually dead, how does that work in terms of varying punishments? Are some just mostly dead?
Eternal life is a quality as well as a duration. Life more abundantly...
Word based mystic
New member
yup already addressed that many times
the fire and the worm are eternal
they consume
it does not make that which they destroy immortal or eternal or imperishable or indestructible or give them eternal life in hell
perish = appollumi (to utterly destroy)
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
we already discussed that and your assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)
you assign an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.
the fire and the worm are eternal
they consume
it does not make that which they destroy immortal or eternal or imperishable or indestructible or give them eternal life in hell
perish = appollumi (to utterly destroy)
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
we already discussed that and your assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)
you assign an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.