Justification of Eternal Punishment

[Timotheos]

You only show your ignorance by not knowing what a Seventh Day Adventist believes, soul sleep being one of them. Total physical destruction of the wicked being but another. So to say one is a SDA is not slanderous. Hope you learned something by this.

I know that SDAs believe in the total destruction of the wicked.
So do other Christians.

Mormons, Muslims and Adolf Hitler believe in eternal conscious torment. If it is not slanderous to call someone a SDA when they are not, then you should have no problem if someone says that you have Mormon-Muslim beliefs that match Hitler's belief.

I'm afraid that you have learned nothing from this exchange. I was pointing out your logical fallacy of "Guilt by Association", but I guess you are unable to see what you did.
Perhaps some weak minded people are convinced by your fallacy, but I'm confident that anyone with intelligence can easily see through your rhetoric.

 

[Cross Reference]

I know that SDAs believe in the total destruction of the wicked.
So do other Christians.

Mormons, Muslims and Adolf Hitler believe in eternal conscious torment. If it is not slanderous to call someone a SDA when they are not, then you should have no problem if someone says that you have Mormon-Muslims beliefs that match Hitler's belief.

I'm afraid that you have learned nothing from this exchange. I was pointing out your logical fallacy of "Guilt by Association", but I guess you are unable to see what you did.
Perhaps some weak minded people are convinced by your fallacy, but I'm confident that anyone with intelligence can easily see through your rhetoric.

You gotta problem, Bunk. We won't be able to do business with each other. Sorry.

 

[Timotheos]

You gotta problem, Bunk. We won't be able to do business with each other. Sorry.

That's all right. Maybe next time, you won't commit the same fallacy, if for no other reason than you know that I will jump on you for doing it.

Carry on!

 

[Cross Reference]

 

[Timotheos]

Are you a follower of Sun Myung Moon?

 

[Word based mystic]

No SDA here.

i our fellowships have relational ties with bill johnson and ywam.
and i really appreciate dan mohler, and john paul jackson whom has passed.

 

[Timotheos]

You only show your ignorance by not knowing what a Seventh Day Adventist believes, soul sleep being one of them. Total physical destruction of the wicked being but another. So to say one is a SDA is not slanderous. Hope you learned something by this.

Since the Bible specifically states in no uncertain terms that the wicked will be destroyed, Anyone who believes that the wicked will be destroyed believes what the Bible says. A person does not have to be an Adventist to believe the Bible.

"But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."

It is undeniable. I don't know why Mormons, Muslims, Adolf Hitler, and some Christians believe that the wicked will not be destroyed. Tradition, I suppose.

 

[chrysostom]

I don't know why Mormons, Muslims, Adolf Hitler, and some Christians believe that the wicked will not be destroyed. Tradition, I suppose.

some people just want others to suffer

it's the christian way

 

[Timotheos]

some people just want others to suffer

it's the christian way

What can we do to convince our fellow "christians" that it is wrong to want others to suffer? They claim that they don't want anyone to suffer, they claim that the Bible says that the unrepentant will go to hell when they die where they will suffer eternal conscious torment forever and ever. But when I ask "Where does the Bible say that the unrepentant will go to hell where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead", they always either give a verse that doesn't say this, or they claim that they have already given me a verse that says this, even though they haven't. When I point out that the Bible says that the unrepentant will be destroyed, they ignore that. After a while, they start insulting me for believing the Bible instead of their tradition. I suppose they think that insulting me will convince me that they are right. That's just muddy thinking.

 

[Timotheos]

You gotta problem, Bunk. We won't be able to do business with each other. Sorry.

I guess my only question is, "Why don't you just believe what the Bible says?"

 

[Cross Reference]

I guess my only question is, "Why don't you just believe what the Bible says?"

To make it say what you would it have it say? No thanks.

It would be more spiritually profitable to pound sand.

 

[Word based mystic]

isaiah 33 is another example and description of what will happen in the end of the age. and the new age to come.

vs 10-12 My breath will consume you like a fire.
12 “The peoples will be burned to lime,
Like cut thorns which are burned in the fire.

clearly another simile of the lords breath consuming and destroying the wicked as by fire....

the whole chapter is a synonym and a simile of the judgement day and the new age afterwards.

now look at vs 14 “Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with [k]continual burning?”
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects [l]unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the [m]impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.

being that God is an all consuming fire and is described as often destroying the wicked with the breath of his mouth as if by fire.
What is the all consuming fire destroying.

NOT the righteous. It specifically shows the righteous can live in consuming fire
and can live with continual burning.

the implied question shows that only the righteous can live or survive the FIRE that is meant to destroy the wicked, which are described in vs 11 as chaff and stubble. the earthly, sensual perishable soul will be consumed.

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Word based mystic]

hebrews 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

2 peter 3:8 not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

jeremiah 21:12 That My wrath may not go forth like fire And burn with none to extinguish it, Because of the evil of their deeds.

none to extinguish the fire. does not mean the fire cannot destroy or that which is put in the fire are eternal or imperishable or indestructible
rather the opposite they will perish by fire and be destroyed by fire.

pretty simple.

as to rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [a]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

read it close who will be tormented day and night forever (till the end of the age)

rev 14:11 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [a]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (till the end of the age)

does not go into the next new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells.

all those things shall pass away.
no more wickedness shall exist anywhere.
the fire did its job
that which was destructible and perishable ceased to exist
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever)))."'"

rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever

no more night

isaiah 60:19 The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory

day and night as we know will be changed in totality.

rev 11:4 they have no rest (day and night), those who worship the beast and his image,

another affirmation that death, hell and the grave shall be consumed, swallowed up in victory
and death shall be no more
this is the 2nd and permanent death.

so yes while they are being destroyed by fire they shall suffer.
is it never ending NO. forever = till the end of the age.

 

[Desert Reign]

I am ok with the idea that those who deserve it will be punished for ever and ever.
However, I don't believe that is what scripture says. I know that God is just and if eternal punishment is just in some circumstances then I am for it, if not then of course I'm not. For me, it is not a great big issue.

However, what I am not ok with is the idea that God punishes for ever and ever those who he knew when he made them that they would not be given the chance to choose life. That's the Calvinist angle on the question. So we need to get the context right here when we answer the question. In an open world where people are responsible for what they do, punishment depends on the offence committed and it's not something you can generalise about as to whether unending torment is automatically just. It simply depends on the circumstances and I trust God over this. As I said, I am not convinced the Bible says that all those who are not in Christ will suffer this punishment and since it is the Bible I primarily revert to in matters of faith, then such a doctrine is just unsupported and looks more like a prodding fork to control people with for those who want (religious) authority but haven't got real authority within themselves.

 

[Cross Reference]

being that God is an all consuming fire and is described as often destroying the wicked with the breath of his mouth as if by fire.
What is the all consuming fire destroying.

Simple: One's relationship with God will, of itself, consume anything and everything that would hinder that relationship which is purposed to refine such an individual as gold when it is heated and the dross removed.

"Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer." Proverbs 25:4 (KJV)

"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem." Ezekiel 22:19 (KJV)

To do what? to destroy them of to refine them that they be a people unto Him?

And then, we have this:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (KJV)

 

[Cross Reference]

so yes while they are being destroyed by fire they shall suffer.
is it never ending NO. forever = till the end of the age.

Forever = Forever!! ___ It's elementary.

 

[Word based mystic]

Simple: One's relationship with God will, of itself, consume anything and everything that would hinder that relationship which is purposed to refine such an individual as gold when it is heated and the dross removed.

"Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer." Proverbs 25:4 (KJV)

"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem." Ezekiel 22:19 (KJV)

To do what? to destroy them of to refine them that they be a people unto Him?

And then, we have this:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (KJV)

you are describing the righteous..
which as being purified will be able to contain more of the fullness of God.

the wicked are destroyed.
are you more of a universalist. Some of your thoughts might be taken as that, with the answer just given.

And if so then the wicked are burned and purified for future salvation.

I can see some scripture that could imply that thought process.
but not enough fullness to eliminate the perish, destruction and 2nd death scriptures.

we are talking about the eternal fire that destroys the wicked. or slays them
not about the righteous who go through trials as if by fire for purification.

 

[Word based mystic]

the wicked not being indestructible or having eternal life consist of perishable substance only.

otherwise they would be indestructible and regenerate and thus would have eternal life. just in a different place.

 

[Word based mystic]

do you now ignore the greek meaning of (forever)?? (aion)
till the end of the age.

not never ending.

the only thing or kingdom that scripture says is never ending is the kingdom of God. luke 1:33

all other things shall perish and pass away.

including the wicked.

 

[Cross Reference]

you are describing the righteous..
which as being purified will be able to contain more of the fullness of God.

the wicked are destroyed.
are you more of a universalist. Some of your thoughts might be taken as that, with the answer just given.

And if so then the wicked are burned and purified for future salvation.

I can see some scripture that could imply that thought process.
but not enough fullness to eliminate the perish, destruction and 2nd death scriptures.

we are talking about the eternal fire that destroys the wicked. or slays them
not about the righteous who go through trials as if by fire for purification.

I am defining God as a consuming fire to the righteous which you are attempting to twist "unquenchable fire" to mean to the damned.