ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

musterion

Well-known member
An argument was floated upthread than the "ages of ages" of torment referred to in Revelation 14 are limited. WHY they are limited was not explained - it was only averred that they would be.

Okay.

Are the coming ages (same root word) referred to in Ephesians 2:7 likewise limited?
 

fzappa13

Well-known member
Yep. However, it is useful to keep that in mind. Without looking at the passage I would guess that the indicative mood and tense of the word plus the context was influential in the translation. This is a guess so perhaps I'm wrong. 😰

Pete 👤

Either that or someone had a problem with the notion of us struggling against wickedness in heavenly places.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Thanks Ted.

Ok, but to say that Sheol is found at the centre of the earth is to say that human spirits are imprisoned in a material place. That would seem to contradict the teaching of Jesus when taught that the flesh and the spirit were completely different things. Admittedly the subject under discussion was conversion but the teaching is there.his teaching not so.

Pete ��

Is your spirit not housed in an earthen vessel?

Why worry about the rest?
 

revpete

New member
Is your spirit not housed in an earthen vessel?

Why worry about the rest?


Housed yes, imprisoned no! When our earthly tabernacles are dissolved then we shall be with The Lord, if we are His of course. For those who die in their sins the matter is completely different! Their spirits are not however imprisoned in the lower parts of the earth for the reason already explained. 📢

Pete 👤
 

Timotheos

New member
Is your spirit not housed in an earthen vessel?

Can you tell me more about this?
I'm pondering Paul's statement that we have treasure in jars of clay.
2 Cor 4:7

What other verses? I'm kind of thinking that the body and the spirit work together. I want to give this more thought, I would like your input.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
What d'ya think?

Neither.

Please define hell as you have been taught it.

Then tell us what you know about the words sheol and hades, translated both grave and hell. Grave being the more accurate translation.

Psalm 6:5 and Acts 2:27 (KJV is hell) being samples
 

Livelystone

New member
Yoo hoo...

That was me

Ages could be likened to length of times that are dispensations such as grace versus judgment the same as every day for the last 2000 years or so "has been “a day of salvation” for many despite there being 360 "days" a year X 2000.

However, when someone dies it is no longer a day of grace for them but becomes a day of judgment which will have a sentence of "time" added to it albeit how time is counted in a world of spiritual bodies is above my pay grade. At the same time those who did not die are still living back in the world as part of their day of grace until their "last day" that all persons will have and are appointed to prior to their judgment

Because we live in a physical world it is normal for one without exposure to the spiritual world (that lives right alongside this one) to have everything planned out in a linear format that apples to all persons as if everyone is going to be resurrected all at the same time. Truth is everyone is resurrected immediately following their physical death where they go first to judgment and then to sentencing while others back in the world as we know it, are still going about their daily lives

As far as the LOF goes.......... the same as the "voice of many waters" and the "beast coming out of the sea (of humanity) are from "bodies of water,” I think we can agree that at the least these bodies of water are metaphors for “many membered bodies” the same as heaven has many members, as does the “Body of Christ,” or for that matter so does hell.

Well, the LOF too is a many membered body. However, the same as a lake is a body of many drops of water, the LOF is a body of many drops of fire with each drop being a fully manifested son of God administering the sentence handed out to a person coming from the "time of judgment” before God into the times of the "second death". This life we are living in now is the time (Age) of the first death, and for those who get right with God in this life the Scriptures tell us that the second death will have no power over them. However, the Bible does not say they will not be there because they will be but will be doing whatever God's plan includes for His will to be fulfilled to the utmost.

We all started out with small flames of fire over our heads representing the Holy Spirit coming into us to purify and "prepare a place" where Father and son can be together. Therefore, those who become "100 fold overcomers are those whom Jesus said He would give them the "morning star" which is a ball of fire and is one of His titles/descriptions. At this point these manifested sons of God are no longer represented by small flames of fire but have become "pillars of fire" whose purpose in the LOF is administrating God's Law that is said to be a "fiery” law" to those who have been sentenced to corrective punishment to take place during a predetermined length of “time” (Age of Ages)

All of us need to keep in mind that God’s plan for man as stated in the beginning is to take mankind from just being in the image of God (man having a spirit and soul because God is Spirit and Soul therefore man was created in the image of God) to becoming in both the image and likeness of God AKA “expressed image” that is the Spirit and Soul of God appearing in human flesh AKA Jesus Christ who is the pattern for many more of the “children given to Him” by His Father.

God’s plan included Adam’s sin as well as our righteousness and while much has to happen between the cup and the lip, the simple truth is God accepts responsibility for the pitiful condition of mankind whose outcome was a direct result of His plan fulfilled first through Adam. For His plan surrounding our future to be fulfilled, made necessary for evil to take on sin so it could be condemned to death that would provide a way for a world to come into existence that will always be without evil because it has already died the death God sentenced it to.

It should not be too hard and would be good exercise for anyone who chooses to find the relevant passages in Scripture. However, if necessary I will help out later
 

Livelystone

New member
So will there come an end to the ages of God showing His own the riches of His grace?

No, but I think there is going to come an age when sin will no longer be a problem (at least with certain individuals) that should rule out the necessity for grace as far as they are concerned

IMO the whole thing on grace is mercy in place of judgment........ but without sin or evil being around there should be no cause for judgment.

If you are asking me if I still think there is going to be a world like the one we are currently living in for "newcomers"?

I don't think so as the command originally given to Adam to multiply and have dominion while he was still in a state of righteousness will finally be fulfilled. Then we will see harmony between man and God such as when it came time to name the animals Adam just sat down and God had the animals come to Adam........ that is true dominion over the earth when it is accomplished in cooperation with our creator

As Paul says all creation waits for the manifestation of the sins of God that IMO will reestablish a Garden of Eden again on earth, If, at that time, there is still sin on earth. for sure it would have to be outside of the Garden

$.02
 

revpete

New member
Neither.



Please define hell as you have been taught it.



Then tell us what you know about the words sheol and hades, translated both grave and hell. Grave being the more accurate translation.



Psalm 6:5 and Acts 2:27 (KJV is hell) being samples


Please see #44

Pete 👤
 

Timotheos

New member
Any thought of eternal suffering as divine justice is a perverted interpretation of the bible, a perverted concept of justice, and makes God out to be a sadistic monster.

I believe it is only a matter of time before the sadistic doctrine, ECTism, crumbles and falls. There is simply too much evidence against it in the Bible.
 

revpete

New member
Any thought of eternal suffering as divine justice is a perverted interpretation of the bible, a perverted concept of justice, and makes God out to be a sadistic monster.


A perverted concept of the way we perceive justice....maybe. However, The Bible teaches that our God is not only a God of love but He is also Holy, just and a consuming fire. I realise that many Christians believe in annihilationism but I am not of that camp.

If what you say is true, why did Jesus Himself spend time emphasising the dangers of Gehenna? The doctrine of eternal punishment does not make God into a sadistic monster as you say but is a statement of His Holiness and justice. Also it is a reminder of the way of salvation that He has provided in The Person of His Son! 👑

Pete 👤
 

Timotheos

New member
A perverted concept of the way we perceive justice....maybe. However, The Bible teaches that our God is not only a God of love but He is also Holy, just and a consuming fire. I realise that many Christians believe in annihilationism but I am not of that camp.

If what you say is true, why did Jesus Himself spend time emphasising the dangers of Gehenna? The doctrine of eternal punishment does not make God into a sadistic monster as you say but is a statement of His Holiness and justice. Also it is a reminder of the way of salvation that He has provided in The Person of His Son! 👑

Pete 👤
I have a few comments. You say correctly that God is a consuming fire. So why wouldn't you accept that the fire consumes instead of torments endlessly and ineffectually? Is God a consuming fire or a weenie fire that cannot burn properly?

You ask why did Jesus emphasize the danger of Gehenna. Why wouldn't He warn of something that completely destroys us? Why wouldn't He warn us to fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna? And in fact He did warn us that the body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna.

Also, what do make of ALL of the Bible passages that say that the wicked will perish, that the wicked will be destroyed, and that the wicked will be destroyed? Are ALL of these Bible passages mistranslated? How is that possible?
 

Livelystone

New member
You are technically correct but consider this. The words are used interchangeably:

"Sheol" in the Hebrew Bible, and "Hades" in the New Testament. Many modern versions, such as the New International Version, translate Sheol as "grave" and simply transliterate "Hades". It is generally agreed that both sheol and hades do not typically refer to the place of eternal punishment, but to the grave, the temporary abode of the dead, the underworld.
"Gehenna" in the New Testament, where it is described as a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43). The word is translated as either "hell" or "hell fire" in English versions.
The Greek verb "ταρταρῶ (tartarō)", which occurs once in the New Testament (in 2 Peter 2:4) is almost always translated by a phrase such as "thrown down to hell". Exceptionally, the 2004 Holman Christian Standard Bible uses the word "Tartarus" and explains: "Tartarus is a Greek name for a subterranean place of divine punishment lower than Hades. "[2 Peter 2:4]

We say "Hell" as a general term

Perhaps a lot of study is in order ��

Pete��

I like how Jesus compared hell to the city dump where the fire continues to burn as long as there is garbage in need of being burnt.

The church is going to have to wake up to the fact that the fire is good albeit an experience not to be compared to hanging out at the beach for the day.

Unfortunately, for some Christians the justification for their lives and why they have had to live without whatever they think "believing" in Jesus has cost them, will not be until others are being turned on a rotisserie for time without an end.

Truth is when we pass through the fire the fat above our kidneys (reins) begins to melt and turn into oil giving us the anointing needed to purify the water of the word within ourselves so we can understand what God would have us to believe

When we pass through the fire the fat above our liver begins to melt and turn into oil giving us the anointing that purifies our blood (the life is in the blood) allowing us to live holy lives before God and with each other.

Moses stepped into the fire to get the law written on stone and if we be willing to step into the fire we will receive the Law of God written on our hearts.......... not the literal law of do's and don'ts but the spiritual knowledge of the law that sets us free from the law of sin and death

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Satan's messenger living in us all Ro.7:23 KJV)
 

revpete

New member
I have a few comments. You say correctly that God is a consuming fire. So why wouldn't you accept that the fire consumes instead of torments endlessly and ineffectually? Is God a consuming fire or a weenie fire that cannot burn properly?



You ask why did Jesus emphasize the danger of Gehenna. Why wouldn't He warn of something that completely destroys us? Why wouldn't He warn us to fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna? And in fact He did warn us that the body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna.



Also, what do make of ALL of the Bible passages that say that the wicked will perish, that the wicked will be destroyed, and that the wicked will be destroyed? Are ALL of these Bible passages mistranslated? How is that possible?


Thanks for your answer 👍

The word used in Matthew can mean to fully destroy but can also be used in the figurative sense and the context of the passage and of the rest of The Lord's teaching on the subject would suggest that this is so.

ἀπόλλυμι {ap-ol'-loo-mee}

ἀπόλλυμι from ἀπό and the base of ὄλεθρος; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

You know full well that the Bible verses that you refer to are not mistranslated but also the Scriptures make full use of figurative language as well as the literal. The golden rule of herminutics is, always interpret literally except if the context dictate otherwise.

The word used for torment in Rev. 14:11

βασανισμός {bas-an-is-mos'}

βασανισμός from βασανίζω; torture: torment.

Used 5 times in the Bible and always means the same thing.

Pete 👤
 

Livelystone

New member
Thanks for your answer ��

The word used in Matthew can mean to fully destroy but can also be used in the figurative sense and the context of the passage and of the rest of The Lord's teaching on the subject would suggest that this is so.

ἀπόλλυμι {ap-ol'-loo-mee}

ἀπόλλυμι from ἀπό and the base of ὄλεθρος; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

You know full well that the Bible verses that you refer to are not mistranslated but also the Scriptures make full use of figurative language as well as the literal.

The word used for torment in Rev. 14:11

βασανισμός {bas-an-is-mos'}

βασανισμός from βασανίζω; torture: torment.

Used 5 times in the Bible and always means the same thing.

Pete ��

Hmmm,

Fire is where Jesus appeared when the three boys had their bonds burnt off

Chastisement is torment but those who do not willingly and joyfully receive it will never become sons

I do not believe you need help finding these passages

However, this statement of yours is as wrong as it gets

The golden rule of herminutics is, always interpret literally except if the context dictate otherwise.

God's Word is Spirit and those who will worship in truth are those who can discern spiritually and not figuratively.

Throw out your theology school method of learning about the things of God and instead learn to embrace how Paul and the others learned what was and what would come to be

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76526
 

revpete

New member
Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

Hmmm,

Fire is where Jesus appeared when the three boys had their bonds burnt off

Chastisement is torment but those who do not willingly and joyfully receive it will never become sons

I do not believe you need help finding these passages

However, this statement of yours is as wrong as it gets



God's Word is Spirit and those who will worship in truth are those who can discern spiritually and not figuratively.

Throw out your theology school method of learning about the things of God and instead learn to embrace how Paul and the others learned what was and what would come to be

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76526


Jesus did not appear in the fiery furnace that was an appearance of the second person of the trinity, otherwise known as a theophany. 🔥 Although I don't know what that has to do with the thread.

I suppose that because I have had theological training I am bound by all sorts of nasty traditions and man made rules. Anyway this discussion is about eternal punishment or annihilation.

No one is talking about discerning spiritually. The point I was making is that scripture sometimes has to be interpreted figuratively or literally according to the context.

So far you have said nothing scriptural that would make me embrace your view as truth.

Pete 👤
 

musterion

Well-known member
So...you foresee the torment-smoked "ages of the ages" terminating, but not "the ages to come," even though both are the same word.

Riiiiiiight.
 
Top