ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?
- Thread starter revpete
- Start date
When GOD cast some into the lake of fire, do you consider that to be "loving" them?
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
If they dont believe it's torture and torment, they most likely have never been there.
Oh how it hurts....... Right now for me.
mmmm hmmmmm
Yup.
This fear and trembling deal sucks.
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
revpete
New member
You are technically correct but consider this. The words are used interchangeably:
"Sheol" in the Hebrew Bible, and "Hades" in the New Testament. Many modern versions, such as the New International Version, translate Sheol as "grave" and simply transliterate "Hades". It is generally agreed that both sheol and hades do not typically refer to the place of eternal punishment, but to the grave, the temporary abode of the dead, the underworld.
"Gehenna" in the New Testament, where it is described as a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43). The word is translated as either "hell" or "hell fire" in English versions.
The Greek verb "ταρταρῶ (tartarō)", which occurs once in the New Testament (in 2 Peter 2:4) is almost always translated by a phrase such as "thrown down to hell". Exceptionally, the 2004 Holman Christian Standard Bible uses the word "Tartarus" and explains: "Tartarus is a Greek name for a subterranean place of divine punishment lower than Hades. "[2 Peter 2:4]
We say "Hell" as a general term
Perhaps a lot of study is in order
Pete
way 2 go
Well-known member
Mar 14:21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."
so this verse loses it meaning with no ECT
without ECT the verse would read
it would have been no different for that man had he existed
or never existed because
in the end he will cease to exist .
:grave:
You are technically correct but consider this. The words are used interchangeably:
"Sheol" in the Hebrew Bible, and "Hades" in the New Testament. Many modern versions, such as the New International Version, translate Sheol as "grave" and simply transliterate "Hades". It is generally agreed that both sheol and hades do not typically refer to the place of eternal punishment, but to the grave, the temporary abode of the dead, the underworld.
"Gehenna" in the New Testament, where it is described as a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43). The word is translated as either "hell" or "hell fire" in English versions.
The Greek verb "ταρταρῶ (tartarō)", which occurs once in the New Testament (in 2 Peter 2:4) is almost always translated by a phrase such as "thrown down to hell". Exceptionally, the 2004 Holman Christian Standard Bible uses the word "Tartarus" and explains: "Tartarus is a Greek name for a subterranean place of divine punishment lower than Hades. "[2 Peter 2:4]
We say "Hell" as a general term
Perhaps a lot of study is in order
Pete
Okay, so, you're hip to the meaning of the various terms translated and mistranslated as "hell" ... so, why the OP?
revpete
New member
I was using the term in the general not strictly theological sense.
Pete
Don't you think that serves to perpetuate what we both know are misconceptions about the term?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
"Torture" imports malicious intent into the equation. "Torment" is simply the experience of the one suffering. "Torture" implies that one is being unjustly and cruelly savaged simply at a whim (in this case, of God!). So someone who says that God is torturing men in hell or the Lake of Fire is (as I see it) charging God with being unjust. The devils said to Jesus : "Have you come to torment us before our time?" because they knew they were appointed to suffer for their rebellion. Even they didn't dare accuse the Lord of being unjust for punishing them.
Thus, unless God is unjust, what is described is both awful and just.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11
Note, however, that this torment is not taking place away from the presence of God - rather it is right in the presence of the angels and the Lamb. It is reminiscent of a verse in Isaiah :
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14
Zion was the mountain of God's presence.
So this Lake of Fire torment is not, I don't believe, separate from God. Rather, it is the torment the devils had in the presence of the Holy One of Israel - the very one they were rebelling against. Likewise, those that worship the beast and take its mark are turning from that same God and will be cast into His Presence without the righteousness of Christ for their covering. Our God, remember, is a consuming fire.
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden thee.
For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 4:23-24
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:28-29
Those whose God is NOT a Consuming Fire can be sure they are worshipping an idol and will find themselves in danger of being thrust into the very Presence they seek to avoid. Talk about torment - but only because they hate the God revealed in scripture. That is Divine Justice.
revpete
New member
Perhaps but I used the term in this manner so most would understand. However, you do have a point.
Pete
Redeemed-777
New member
Well, they surely are not sincerely honest.
And you think BACs who are involved with unrepented-of sin
are merrily skipping along danger-free on their way to heaven.
The real question is why does Totty try to substitute a lie for Biblical truth?
IMJerusha
New member
It won't be fun, how 'bout that?!
IMJerusha
New member
Scripture please.
And , are you speaking of the Greek tartarus? That's Greek mythology.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Many word studies of this topic are available online. Here is a summary of one:
Hades is the New Testament equivalent of the Old Testament word Sheol. The Greek and Hebrew words speak of the same place, the present Hell. However, this is problematic because Sheol has been translated "grave" as often as it has "hell" and some have mistakenly taught that Sheol and Hades are only references to the grave rather than Hell. This erroneous teaching leads to the denial of the existence of an immediate or present Hell. The false doctrine of soul-sleep, and other ideas that teach the unconscious state of the dead between death and resurrection, spring from this error.
The common word for "grave" in the Old Testament is queber. Of the sixty-four times it is used, it is translated "grave" thirty-four times, "sepulcher" twenty-six times, and "burying place" four times. Queber is used five additional times as part of a place name, Kibroth-hattaavah, which means "graves of lust." As we said earlier, Sheol is found sixty-four times, being rendered "grave" thirty-one times, "hell" thirty-one times, and "pit" three times.
A comparison of how Sheol and queber are used reveals eight points of contrast that tell us that they are not the same thing.
1. Sheol is never used in plural form. Queber is used in the plural 29 times.
2. It is never said that the body goes to Sheol. Queber speaks of the body going there 37 times.
3. Sheol is never said to be located on the face of the earth. Queber is mentioned 32 times as being located on the earth.
4. An individual's Sheol is never mentioned. An individual's queber is mentioned 5 times.
5. Man is never said to put anyone into Sheol. Individuals are put into a queber by man (33 times).
6. Man is never said to have dug or fashioned a Sheol. Man is said to have dug, or fashioned, a queber (6 times).
7. Man is never said to have touched Sheol. Man touches, or can touch, a queber (5 times).
8. It is never said that man is able to possess a Sheol. Man is spoken of as being able to possess a queber (7 times). (These eight points of comparison are adapted from "Life and Death" by Caleb J. Baker, Bible Institute Colportage Association, 1941).
From the differences between how Sheol and queber are used in Scripture, it is obvious that they are not the same thing. The Greek word Hades in the New Testament would fit into the Sheol column of our chart, strongly indicating that it is the same thing as Sheol. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered Hell ten times and grave once.
ibid:
While we have not exhausted the subject by looking at every passage that Sheol is found in, it is clear from these examples that Sheol is not simply the grave but is located at the center of the earth and is the abode of the souls of the unrighteous dead who are awaiting their resurrection unto condemnation. It is equally clear that those in Sheol/Hades are not in an unconscious state of existence but are quite aware of what is going on around them. There is memory, recognition, and communication there.
PARADISE
While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham's Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25).
Christ's soul was in Sheol/Hades between His death and resurrection. The place where Christ's soul went between His death and resurrection is also called paradise (Luke 23:43).
Peace, Ted
ttruscott
Well-known member
Scripture please.
Ummm...
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to tartarus, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
"chains of darkness:" 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Vincent's Word Studies on: 'Of darkness' (ζόφου) Peculiar to Peter and Jude... Robinson's Lexicon renders it: "Where darkness lies like chains upon them..."
Some people think that they are chained in tartarus which is dark and so cannot leave but these verses say the dark is the chain holding them back and restraining them.
Dark: metaphor for spiritual ignorance:
Proverbs 4:19 "The way of the wicked is like darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble."
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
But those blinded by sin also live in the dark:
Revelation 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
Therefore it is easily seen that these chains that bind these fallen beings are composed of ignorance about the true nature of reality, about spiritual reality in general and their true spiritual state. And they live deep in the earth but are not chained there so maybe they are the people of the evil one, sown into the world to do his desires and they live on earth with the fallen stars of Revelation 12:4 whom no one can identify with certitude.... Don't forget that on earth, WE, the people of the kingdom sown into the world by the Son of Man, are also under the power of darkness before we are saved: Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the POWER of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves... how much more so are the tares?
The fact that these stars are swept and thrown to earth suggests enmity with the devil which fits very well with the PCE assertion that idolatry of some of the evil angels caused some of the elect to rebel against their damnation and become sinners themselves, the enmity kept alive by their election and the curse of damnation still being upon the devil.
The darkness and blindness to true spiritual reality is also suggested in PCE by our assertions that we have forgotten, that is, repressed due to our love for evil, our pre-earth existence and our free will choices which forgetting binds the non-elect (the devil and all his angels of Revelation 12:9), restraining them from giving full vent to their evil and hatred.
Peace, Ted
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IMJerusha
New member
Well, Ted, that doesn't change the fact that tartarus has its roots in Greek mythology. Thank you for locating the Scripture for me.
Perhaps but I used the term in this manner so most would understand. However, you do have a point.
Pete
Yeah, I know, on the top of my head ... but seriously, it took me years to sort out how much translational activity was inspired by doctrinal beliefs and how much of it was the result of linguistic knowledge.
Take the term "eporanious" for instance. In Ephesians it is consistantly translated five times and number six resulted in a different translation. Hard to get around the notion that someone had a doctrinal ox about to be gored and deliberately avoided the sight. I have found that when I have difficulty understanding a passage in the light of what I have already read that taking it back to the original language clears it up for me.
revpete
New member
Yep. However, it is useful to keep that in mind. Without looking at the passage I would guess that the indicative mood and tense of the word plus the context was influential in the translation. This is a guess so perhaps I'm wrong.
Pete
revpete
New member
Thanks Ted.
Ok, but to say that Sheol is found at the centre of the earth is to say that human spirits are imprisoned in a material place. That would seem to contradict the teaching of Jesus when taught that the flesh and the spirit were completely different things. Admittedly the subject under discussion was conversion but the teaching is there. This sounds like Clarence Larkin's teaching to me. His diagrams are excellent, some of his teaching not so.
Pete