ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

[revpete]

So...you foresee the torment-smoked "ages of the ages" terminating, but not "the ages to come," even though both are the same word.

Riiiiiiight.

If this is meant for me, I do not see eternal punishment terminating as then it would not be eternal.

Pete

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Can you tell me more about this?
I'm pondering Paul's statement that we have treasure in jars of clay.
2 Cor 4:7

What other verses? I'm kind of thinking that the body and the spirit work together. I want to give this more thought, I would like your input.

Over the past three weeks, He has mocked me, had me in derision, laughed at me, and shown me loving kindness.

I've cried, cussed at Him and thanked Him.

Funny thing is, He has shown me these things in His written word, and even shown me before in His living way.

A lot of the passages people take for granted of hell and torment being meant for those who didn't make the cut, are what a sinner goes through now .

I'm not sure yet where my spirit ends and his begins.

Or how my spirit functions in/with this body.

Them seven more wicked spirits got into me, and I was helpless against them, even though I knew they were there.

I had been praying for Him to quicken me, but I gotta tell yuh, when He started doin' it, it aint what I figgered it would be.

Day for a year, acceptable year of the Lord?

Enoch lived 365 years and was not, for God took him.

I feel like I'm about 16 days in, or 16 years old.

Time will tell.

I'm hopin' my old Enoch will be gone, and the new man in Christ will be here at the end of this spiritual year.

I believe there are folks around who have been through it, or at least been where I am right now.

This is like the third time I have experienced this, but never got through the labor pains before now.

Make sense?

 

[Livelystone]

Jesus did not appear in the fiery furnace that was an appearance of the second person of the trinity, otherwise known as a theophany. Although I don't know what that has to do with the thread.

Christ has always existed and whether He appears by His Spirit or in flesh is irrelevant. The fact is He is the Fire, and because you have yet to realize this does not matter

I suppose that because I have had theological training I am bound by all sorts of nasty traditions and man made rules. Anyway this discussion is about eternal punishment or annihilation.

The original words translated into the Bible as "ages" describe a period of time with both a beginning and an end....... Being as any decent lexicon supports this position, I have to ask, what is your problem with the truth?

BTW, I am a little short on cash right now but am willing to bet on what I said is true............ are you willing to take the challenge?

No one is talking about discerning spiritually. The point I was making is that scripture sometimes has to be interpreted figuratively or literally according to the context.

Truth is if you cannot discern spiritually, you cannot discern at all! (And this you can take to the bank.)

So far you have said nothing scriptural that would make me embrace your view as truth.Pete

I have asked that if you need help with the scriptures that support what I post is true,, just ask and I will help you.

Fair enough ?

 

[Timotheos]

The golden rule of herminutics is, always interpret literally except if the context dictate otherwise.

That's a dumb rule, no offense. (See, I'm off the hook. I said no offense :jump

I think the golden rule of herminutics is "Try to understand what the author is talking about".

 

[Timotheos]

Over the past three weeks, He has mocked me, had me in derision, laughed at me, and shown me loving kindness.

I've cried, cussed at Him and thanked Him.

Funny thing is, He has shown me these things in His written word, and even shown me before in His living way.

A lot of the passages people take for granted of hell and torment being meant for those who didn't make the cut, are what a sinner goes through now .

I'm not sure yet where my spirit ends and his begins.

Or how my spirit functions in/with this body.

Them seven more wicked spirits got into me, and I was helpless against them, even though I knew they were there.

I had been praying for Him to quicken me, but I gotta tell yuh, when He started doin' it, it aint what I figgered it would be.

Day for a year, acceptable year of the Lord?

Enoch lived 365 years and was not, for God took him.

I feel like I'm about 16 days in, or 16 years old.

Time will tell.

I'm hopin' my old Enoch will be gone, and the new man in Christ will be here at the end of this spiritual year.

I believe there are folks around who have been through it, or at least been where I am right now.

This is like the third time I have experienced this, but never got through the labor pains before now.

Make sense?

Yes, this does make sense to me.

 

[Livelystone]

PS: Look up Strongs # 166 in a good old lexicon like Strongs rather than one rewritten to support demonational doctrines such as some late model online lexicons are, and you will see that "aionios" (the word translated from the Greek into english as everlasting or eternal) defines a time period that maybe defined or undefined but it is not endless

Hope this helps

 

[revpete]

Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

Christ has always existed and whether He appears by His Spirit or in flesh is irrelevant. The fact is He is the Fire, and because you have yet to realize this does not matter









The original words translated into the Bible as "ages" describe a period of time with both a beginning and an end....... Being as any decent lexicon supports this position, I have to ask, what is your problem with the truth?





BTW, I am a little short on cash right now but am willing to bet on what I said is true............ are you willing to take the challenge?








Truth is if you cannot discern spiritually, you cannot discern at all! (And this you can take to the bank.)







I have asked that if you need help with the scriptures that support what I post is true,, just ask and I will help you.







Fair enough ?

Christ (Messiah) has not always existed. I know what you mean though. As The Word or Logos, yes He has always existed. The point I was making is that Jesus could not have appeared in the furnace because He had not been born. The one in the furnace with the three Hebrew young men was The second person of the trinity, in other words a theophany. Or if it makes it easier, Christ before His incarnation. Jesus The Son of Man came into being when He was born in Bethlehem.

I have no problem at all with Biblical truth. Let me say again, Hell or Gehenna is eternal so is the eternal state of the blessed. Study the doctrine, the whole picture and you will see. When viewed in context both are seen as eternal. Do you think then that the state of the blessed or heaven is not eternal?

I don't gamble but if I did you would be a poor man materially as well.

Yes, discernment is a gift of The Holy Spirit. However, what I am talking about is interpretation and context which is just the correct method of Bible study. There is a danger of reading into certain scriptures things that are not there.

Yes, please quote a few verses please, I would be grateful.

Pete

 

[ttruscott]

...

You know full well that the Bible verses that you refer to are not mistranslated but also the Scriptures make full use of figurative language as well as the literal. The golden rule of herminutics is, always interpret literally except if the context dictate otherwise.

...

That's a dumb rule, no offense. (See, I'm off the hook. I said no offense :jump

I think the golden rule of herminutics is "Try to understand what the author is talking about".

THE GOLDEN RULE OF SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION
The golden rule of biblical interpretation is that usually the plainest sense or interpretation most closely resembles what GOD wants us to do or know.

Please consider:

We have this book called the Bible. So what? What good is it to us when every little sect on up to you know who supports their often very contradictory and even weird beliefs with the words of the Bible?

Well first, it is plain to see that having biblical support for one's beliefs is of some importance, for if it was not, why would everyone seek to support their beliefs with the Bible? May I suggest therefore, that the importance involved here is in having the support of, or being in unity with, the GOD of the Bible, which is important most likely on account of the fact that such support or unity gives one a certain degree of assurance as to the correctness of one's course, that is, as to the end of one's course.

In other words, it is nice to know what the outcome will be when one finally meets the GOD of the Bible face to face.

Now, obviously two completely different courses or beliefs can not have the same biblical assurance. At least one (if not both) of them must be in error as to the teaching of the GOD of the Bible. In other words, at least one of them must be deluded about where they are at in regard to the truth. This then brings us to the fact that, to have true biblical assurance one must correctly handle or interpret what the Bible says, as per 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth, and 2 Peter 3:16 ...in which (Paul's epistles) are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Now, determining what the Scriptures really say is very hard to do, for often there are many different ways of interpreting the same verse. Moreover, because words can be defined in so many ways and because we are somewhat inclined and even pressured towards selfishness, et cetera, we tend to interpret them so that they say what we want them to say, rather than interpreting them in ways that counteract our evil desires and self-glorifying earthly rationality.

This quirk seems to hold true no matter how much education one has, for the very educated commentators are no more in agreement on the verses they "know so much about" than is a gathering of lay people on the fourth night who do not necessarily know everything about every jot and tittle.

In other words, history has proven that when it comes to correctly interpreting the word of GOD, most people are usually in error (especially when it comes to prophecy). Therefore, this being such an important area in our belief and because it seems to be so easy to make mistakes, I would like to pass on to you, in a very short discourse, what GOD has lead me to believe.

First, I believe that to correctly interpret the Bible, one must accept it as the authority it claims to be, to wit: the Book of (by, from) GOD. In other words, one must eventually become willing to obey or trust in the message if you happen to find one.

Second, one must determine the correct text (what did the original say?) for which study there is a set of rules to guide the student. In other words, is the translation you're reading correct?

Third, one must correctly interpret the text (what did the writer really mean when he said what he said?) for which there is a set of rules also. Well, I hope that you can now see that obtaining good assurance as to the correctness of one's interpretations of the Bible does not come easily. It takes some hard intellectual work and study, and even then one might not be right.

Well, as if this was not tough enough, it gets even harder because every interpretation seems to have its share of experts and priests proclaiming its authenticity. This leads us to another aspect of the problem, to wit: that even if your expert or priest knows all the rules on how to correctly interpret the Bible, often it is written in such a way that even such learned people need one more thing to arrive at the correct interpretation. This wild card aspect of interpreting the Bible is called the illumination of the Holy Spirit, and He does not give it to everyone.

[Herein lies one of the reasons for why we get so many denominations. Certain Scriptures can be interpreted more than one way, even after one has applied all the rules, and in such instances we are left with only our own, or some (S)spirit's illumination, to guide us on the path.]

In other words, in the final analysis, it is not so much how much you know (although this is extremely important) but it is (W)who knows you that determines the correctness of your interpretation.

Now, I hope that this does not make you want to keep your Bible on the shelf as has been the honoured tradition of so many Christians for so long. Rather, I hope you might see that interpreting the Bible is not a light matter, and that if you are going to successfully escape some of satan's pit falls through some study of the Bible (rather than falling into one through your study of the Word) both a correct attitude toward GOD and some diligent study will be required.

Now, having brought all this to your attention, I would like to add one more thing, which is the number one rule of scriptural interpretation:

The golden rule of biblical interpretation is that usually the plainest sense or interpretation most closely resembles what GOD wants us to do or know.

Now although this seems to be very easy, such things are never allowed to be so simple as to make the illumination of the Holy Spirit unnecessary. Therefore, GOD has put in some exceptions to the rule and of course, everyone seems to have a different number of them, for there are some hard to understand figures of speech and symbols, et cetera, and most of all, as soon as a Scripture in its plainest sense fails to line up with the prevailing theological presuppositions of the reader, that Scripture quickly becomes an exception to this golden rule.

Well, it has taken a long time, but we have finally arrived at the point where we apply this to the apology. When you read this apology I hope that you will remember this golden rule, for it is my charge that most of the Scriptures that support Pre-Conception Existence Christian Theology (PCEC) have been placed in the "grave exception to the rule" category because, as they plainly read, they support our preconception existence.

That is, they do not fit in with the present theological presuppositions on the origin of the spirit and therefore, they have been reinterpreted to match the theological systems which are all based on the presumption that none of us existed before our conception in the womb.

Now, I am not denying the validity of non-literal interpretation (figures of speech, allegory, symbolism) of Scripture, but surely a straight forward interpretation which makes good common sense, is preferable to all the other interpretations.

Peace, Ted

 

[revpete]

That's a dumb rule, no offense. (See, I'm off the hook. I said no offense :jump



I think the golden rule of herminutics is "Try to understand what the author is talking about".

Yes, absolutely right! You do that by employing the correct method of interpretation which I have already stated and you called "dumb."

Pete

 

[fzappa13]

If this is meant for me, I do not see eternal punishment terminating as then it would not be eternal.

Pete

Has the possibility occurred to you that the fire is eternal but what is cast into it is not?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Golden Rule of Bible Interpretation

Golden Rule of Bible Interpretation

THE GOLDEN RULE OF SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION
The golden rule of biblical interpretation is that usually the plainest sense or interpretation most closely resembles what GOD wants us to do or know.

Here is also a version of the golden rule of Bible interpretation,

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.

 

[revpete]

THE GOLDEN RULE OF SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION

The golden rule of biblical interpretation is that usually the plainest sense or interpretation most closely resembles what GOD wants us to do or know.



Please consider:



We have this book called the Bible. So what? What good is it to us when every little sect on up to you know who supports their often very contradictory and even weird beliefs with the words of the Bible?



Well first, it is plain to see that having biblical support for one's beliefs is of some importance, for if it was not, why would everyone seek to support their beliefs with the Bible? May I suggest therefore, that the importance involved here is in having the support of, or being in unity with, the GOD of the Bible, which is important most likely on account of the fact that such support or unity gives one a certain degree of assurance as to the correctness of one's course, that is, as to the end of one's course.



In other words, it is nice to know what the outcome will be when one finally meets the GOD of the Bible face to face.



Now, obviously two completely different courses or beliefs can not have the same biblical assurance. At least one (if not both) of them must be in error as to the teaching of the GOD of the Bible. In other words, at least one of them must be deluded about where they are at in regard to the truth. This then brings us to the fact that, to have true biblical assurance one must correctly handle or interpret what the Bible says, as per 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth, and 2 Peter 3:16 ...in which (Paul's epistles) are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.



Now, determining what the Scriptures really say is very hard to do, for often there are many different ways of interpreting the same verse. Moreover, because words can be defined in so many ways and because we are somewhat inclined and even pressured towards selfishness, et cetera, we tend to interpret them so that they say what we want them to say, rather than interpreting them in ways that counteract our evil desires and self-glorifying earthly rationality.



This quirk seems to hold true no matter how much education one has, for the very educated commentators are no more in agreement on the verses they "know so much about" than is a gathering of lay people on the fourth night who do not necessarily know everything about every jot and tittle.



In other words, history has proven that when it comes to correctly interpreting the word of GOD, most people are usually in error (especially when it comes to prophecy). Therefore, this being such an important area in our belief and because it seems to be so easy to make mistakes, I would like to pass on to you, in a very short discourse, what GOD has lead me to believe.



First, I believe that to correctly interpret the Bible, one must accept it as the authority it claims to be, to wit: the Book of (by, from) GOD. In other words, one must eventually become willing to obey or trust in the message if you happen to find one.



Second, one must determine the correct text (what did the original say?) for which study there is a set of rules to guide the student. In other words, is the translation you're reading correct?



Third, one must correctly interpret the text (what did the writer really mean when he said what he said?) for which there is a set of rules also. Well, I hope that you can now see that obtaining good assurance as to the correctness of one's interpretations of the Bible does not come easily. It takes some hard intellectual work and study, and even then one might not be right.



Well, as if this was not tough enough, it gets even harder because every interpretation seems to have its share of experts and priests proclaiming its authenticity. This leads us to another aspect of the problem, to wit: that even if your expert or priest knows all the rules on how to correctly interpret the Bible, often it is written in such a way that even such learned people need one more thing to arrive at the correct interpretation. This wild card aspect of interpreting the Bible is called the illumination of the Holy Spirit, and He does not give it to everyone.



[Herein lies one of the reasons for why we get so many denominations. Certain Scriptures can be interpreted more than one way, even after one has applied all the rules, and in such instances we are left with only our own, or some (S)spirit's illumination, to guide us on the path.]



In other words, in the final analysis, it is not so much how much you know (although this is extremely important) but it is (W)who knows you that determines the correctness of your interpretation.



Now, I hope that this does not make you want to keep your Bible on the shelf as has been the honoured tradition of so many Christians for so long. Rather, I hope you might see that interpreting the Bible is not a light matter, and that if you are going to successfully escape some of satan's pit falls through some study of the Bible (rather than falling into one through your study of the Word) both a correct attitude toward GOD and some diligent study will be required.



Now, having brought all this to your attention, I would like to add one more thing, which is the number one rule of scriptural interpretation:



The golden rule of biblical interpretation is that usually the plainest sense or interpretation most closely resembles what GOD wants us to do or know.



Now although this seems to be very easy, such things are never allowed to be so simple as to make the illumination of the Holy Spirit unnecessary. Therefore, GOD has put in some exceptions to the rule and of course, everyone seems to have a different number of them, for there are some hard to understand figures of speech and symbols, et cetera, and most of all, as soon as a Scripture in its plainest sense fails to line up with the prevailing theological presuppositions of the reader, that Scripture quickly becomes an exception to this golden rule.



Well, it has taken a long time, but we have finally arrived at the point where we apply this to the apology. When you read this apology I hope that you will remember this golden rule, for it is my charge that most of the Scriptures that support Pre-Conception Existence Christian Theology (PCEC) have been placed in the "grave exception to the rule" category because, as they plainly read, they support our preconception existence.



That is, they do not fit in with the present theological presuppositions on the origin of the spirit and therefore, they have been reinterpreted to match the theological systems which are all based on the presumption that none of us existed before our conception in the womb.



Now, I am not denying the validity of non-literal interpretation (figures of speech, allegory, symbolism) of Scripture, but surely a straight forward interpretation which makes good common sense, is preferable to all the other interpretations.



Peace, Ted

Ted, you have said quite a lot and understandably so. You have merely expanded on what I stated. I gave the abridged version if you like. I know that there is also much more to say. I would agree with your last statement and that must surely be the goal of every serious Bible student. A straight forward interpretation is arrived at by the rule (IMO) I have stated. Aren't the two rules we have stated the same thing in different words?

Pete

 

[revpete]

Has the possibility occurred to you that the fire is eternal but what is cast into it is not?

Then what is the point of a fire that burns for ever?

Pete

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Has the possibility occurred to you that the fire is eternal but what is cast into it is not?

Whatever else anybody believes, the situation is more dire and severe. It's always occurred to me that, were the lake of fire merely annihilation, how would hell differ from what saints experienced, being burned at the stake? Would what persecuted saints have experienced be an equivalence for the likes of Adolf Hitler, for instance? In any event, you do not want to go to judgment, if you believe the rich man of the Lazarus story, or believe this,

Matthew 5

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

This warning is much more sober than, "Poof! You're gone."

 

[fzappa13]

Then what is the point of a fire that burns for ever?

Pete

Well, I guess the first thing I would do is look to the symbol from which the lake of fire derived one of its names, namely the valley in which Jerusalem's trash was burned. The fire was ongoing but that which was cast into it was consumed was it not?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Well, I guess the first thing I would do is look to the symbol from which the lake of fire derived one of its names, namely the valley in which Jerusalem's trash was burned. The fire was ongoing but that which was cast into it was consumed was it not?

Looking to the Bible, for a verse that addresses the consumption issue, you have this one. Note it is where the beast and the false prophet are, not were:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There's a lot of torment going on in the lake of fire.

Having no rest night or day doesn't bode well for the idea of annihilation, of those humans who worshiped the beast,

Revelation 14

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, absolutely right! You do that by employing the correct method of interpretation which I have already stated and you called "dumb."

Pete

A lot of people are taking the seven headed, ten horned beast literally, even though the context and the genre dictate that it is symbolic. And this is the beast that is tormented day and night forever, which they also insist is literal. If that's the correct method of interpretation, then I'm the easter bunny. The way to read the Bible is to understand the historical context and try to understand what the author is trying to convey, not by asserting rules set in concrete that say "Everything is to be taken literally unless I say otherwise".

 

[fzappa13]

Looking to the Bible, for a verse that addresses the consumption issue, you have this one. Note it is where the beast and the false prophet are, not were:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There's a lot of torment going on in the lake of fire.

Having no rest night or day doesn't bode well for the idea of annihilation, of those humans who worshiped the beast,

Revelation 14

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

There are numerous verses that address this issue. To focus on one to the exclusion of the rest leaves one with an incomplete picture, don't you think?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

There are numerous verses that address this issue. To focus on one to the exclusion of the rest leaves one with an incomplete picture, don't you think?

You make a good point, as scripture must be taken in its entire context. But about the verses cited, there are stark, literal scripture references to states of conscious, restless torment that can't be shoved under the rug. Further interpretation ends, when plain facts are declared. Having seen where you're likely going, from some soul sleep, etc., denominations, it gets to where scripture mangling is required, man's "reason" injected, and the like. This, of course, doesn't lead to truth. The Bible says what it says in most cases, bottom line, and we can't negate any revealed truth from God.

 

[fzappa13]

You make a good point, as scripture must be taken in its entire context. But about the verses cited, there are stark, literal scripture references to states of conscious, restless torment that can't be shoved under the rug. Further interpretation ends, when plain facts are declared. Having seen where you're likely going, from some soul sleep, etc., denominations, it gets to where scripture mangling is required, man's "reason" injected, and the like. This, of course, doesn't lead to truth. The Bible says what it says in most cases, bottom line, and we can't negate any revealed truth from God.

Okay, but, by singling out the two verses you did you have only Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet and those who took the mark of the beast suffering this fate. What of the rest of the thieves, liars and murderers that aren't making it into the kingdom of God? How about those that took his number and name?